You invoked Godwin's law. You lose the argument.

Also, you're quite absurd in your views of Ulfric Stormcloak.

I'm sure I could find parallels between Hitler and the empire too. But I won't, because that's insulting to the people who actually suffered and be an embarrassment to myself and the people who support my argument. Yes, Ulfric is charismatic. Big deal, so are a lot of people. There is nothing he has said or done that has anything to do with what Hitler did that makes him known as the worst person ever. So let's drop this and try to create an argument based on actual facts from the game rather than trying to convince people to join the Empire BECAUSE HITLER.

Also, I realize that you were 100% not joking when you said that Ulfric Stormcloak is in league with the Thalmor. Therefore, I implore you to leave this thread and actually read the Thalmor Dossier until you realize your mistake.

You really need to stupid the lore...The Empire is no better.

Judged to be correct invocation of Godwins law. A rarity on the internet.

Charismatic rebel leaders are all like Hitler?

No. Fail.

Which is why it's a correct invocation of Godwin's Law; because it applies.

Okay, my bad, I thought you were saying that they were correct in their comparison.

You know what a rebel is? A tool of the next Empire. As soon as the smoke clears people still need their internet and for the subway to run on time. The problem is that the 'Skyrim belongs to the Nords!' battlecry of the Stormcloaks is inherently doomed why you try and make a new Empire out of it. It is a doomed idea from the get-go.

The Dominion consists of several nations worth of resources. They are also, as the history shows, incredibly well organized, patient and tactically adept. The idea that an isolated Skyrim could stand against the Aldmeri Dominion is nothing short of silly. The question, as has been asked prior, is would the Thalmor bother attacking Skyrim at all? What is pretty clear is that Skyrim is not nor would be in any position to actually attack the Dominion without the organizational tools and infrastructure of the Empire.

What kills me is that for all his negatives I think Ulfric has the skills to make a better Emperor than Titus Mede II. He's ambitious, devious, to a degree self serving but absolutely willing to pony up and make the hard choices when the time comes, he's got the charisma and tactical skills as well. The problem is that he can't seem to get past the nationalistic mindset and start thinking about a new Empire. He's got a slew of Dunmer in his backyard and the potential political capital to turn that into the support of the survivors of Morrowind. Without getting into spoilers you can't tell me that he didn't have the opportunity to turn the 'Stormcloak victory plot line' into an alliance with the Empire and him in a position of dominance.

Whatever you say about the original Tiber Septim he was ambitious and his goal was not 'get everyone into one big happy family'. It was 'make an empire with me in charge'. That is the impetus for making an empire, that's the sort of leader it needs.

Ulfric, unfortunately, isn't it. Titus Mede even less so. All they're accomplishing is splitting the human factions into further isolated pieces and taking the Nords and all their resources out of play against the Dominion. The setup for the game smacks the next installment in the series happening 100 years or so down the line with all of humanity being enslaved under an oppressive Aldmeri Dominion and a possible replay of the events of the First Era. Return of a reincarnated Pelinial Whitestrake, a new take on the Slave Queen Alessia, all that sort of cool stuff. There's a ton of pre-Daggerfall history that can be recycled in that 'history repeats itself' sort of way to make some very interesting plot events.

That sounds like it will be interesting. In fact, it is the main reason I join the Stormcloaks - because I know that it will make a more interesting story. Ulfric may succeed, and he may fail and fall to the Dominion, but it's going to be a good show either way.

Stormcloaks...The Empire.... for my Khajiit Thief/Assassin, my first and only character so far, he doesn't care about the politics. In fact, the current struggle is perfect for his operations. It is easier to run a Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood when the authorities are busy fighting a war. And a war is mostly profitable for an organization that specializes in contract assassination and smuggling.

So until I create a new character, most likely a Orc warrior who has always loved the Imperials, I won't meddle in the political affairs. The dragons were a threat to my Khajiit's business. Political struggles benefit his factions' economy. :thumbsup:

Actually the only group he has vowed to hurt as best he can are the Thalmor...considering they've most likely caused a few massacres in Elsweyr. As such, he leaves bodies of the Thalmor whenever he meets with them. And they're snobbish High Elves...so they do deserve their death for simply being so.

Sorry, I meant that Levanon was correct. Invocation of Godwins law means the responder, not the person who invoked hitler's ghost.

(this post not intended to be grammar nazi)

Absolutely true. The Empire is playing the "long game," where they are making too many concessions perhaps in attempting not only to rebuild, but to avert the need for future wars. Perhaps they are too willing to "break some eggs" to make that omlet. Something tells me a Septim would agree.


This is where your logic breaks down. The wrong decisions of a handful of present incumbent representatives does NOT equate to a lost cause.


I do have compassion for the plight of the Nords. The idea is in the right place. They want to see ACTION taken, they want to know the war hasn’t been lost, that the Empire is still fighting to rebuild. They want to see tangible gains, instant gratification. I get that.

The world just doesn’t work that way.

Of course, all it takes is some thug with a silver tongue to grab at power and make promises he cannot possibly keep, to mobilize the less forward thinking of these mostly decent, patriotic folk.

The market for snake oil always booms during a plague. It doesn’t make it a solution. It just reinforces hope, tells us what we want to hear, and eases us into what inevitably results of such concessions.

Ironically, what we seek in the short term more often ends up being what defeats us in the long term. Most citizens are not prepared to fight. Not an enemy like this. Now is the time for cooler heads to prevail.

So, as a true patriot, if you feel compelled to action, and slip a dagger between the shoulders of one of these occupiers, the notions are certainly not mutually exclusive.

The Empire hates the Thalmor as much as Ulfric. If we knew we had the backing of the people we represent, we would push our initiative now.

I would argue the Empire IS playing the long game, and does realize that neither they nor these wishful thinking Stormcloaks could possibly succeed at this juncture. It isn’t what the instant gratification crowd wants to hear, but it’s the truth. Why?

We are divided.

By allowing these concessions, letting Thalmor agents operate within our borders, we are hoping to solidify in the minds of the people who the REAL enemy is. The more injustice suffered at the hands of the Thalmor occupiers, the more people are unified against that common enemy.

It is a gamble, but until the populace is prepared to support the agenda of unity, the infighting will ALWAYS limit the actions of the responsible electorate or power structure.

A leader who could speak to that message, unify the wealth, the hearts and minds of the populace, SUCH A LEADER HAS THE POWER TO CHANGE HISTORY.

In my opinion when all cards are on the table there are only two reasons too join the stormcloaks.

1: Pride

2: Hate of the Empire

Neither seem like sensible reasons too me.

The Empire swallows it's pride too buy time and build it's strength, and most aren't exactly enthusiatic to the banning of Talos worship or having Thalmor agents in there land.

I didn't add soveirgnty because thats a croc, the forsworn want "their" land to be independant as well, you think the Nords see it that way?

Bottom line is that if the Nords go with the empire they will be given to the Thalmor. Their only chance is to break the concordat. Waiting is not an option.

You forgot the third one:

Self-respect.

4. Enjoy having fun.

5. Enjoy a better story.

6. Think that Ulfric and Galmar's budding romance is completely adorable.

7. Like dramatic speeches.

There are MANY reasons.

So if Germany demanded that the everyone in New York stopped worshipping as they see fit and the US government agreed to that, then you would be fine with that?

That only a portion of the country is effect and hey no skin off their nose.


The stupid people here are the imperials

The Empire gave up hammerfell and the Red Guard wiped the floor with the Aldmeri Dominion and forced them out

The same thing is going to happen to Skyrim. The Nords will force them out after they teach the Empire how to fight.


If the Empire would stop bending over backwards for the Dominion maybe they could win a war or two

What!? the Empires not fighting a civil war so they can hand Skyrim over.

Where do you come up with that nonsense?

Pot, meet kettle.

How?

Like I said before - the empire is letting the Thalmor run around in Skyrim doing whatever they want. Thallius is taking marching orders from them. If you let the Thalmor stay much longer they will own skyrim - fait accompli. Dont tell me they are biding their time because you cannot build your forces faster than your enemy when your enemy is in charge.

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of reiterating the same points in thread after thread, but I'll break it down for you by quoting someone else (bolded areas for emphasis).







The Stormcloaks aren't going to hand Skyrim over to the Dominion. The Dominion's forces are already spread thin, and they're getting their butts handed to them in Hammerfell. The Thalmor invading Skyrim would be a tactical mistake equivalent to any of the various rising powers in Europe deciding to invade Russia.

Besides, you can only HOPE they are biding their time. You don't know. You don't know if they'll ever even be strong enough. And hope that if they are, it doesn't take 30 years.

Remember that a large part of the imperial army is composed of Nords. If those Nords go with Ulfriic then Ulfriic takes cyrodiil.

In the Short term perhaps, i'm talking about the big picture centuries of time etc.