One thing that bugged me in Oblivion was the idiot proofing. I could never fail at anything, I could never sell a quest item, I could never kill a quest related character (even for the "unimportant" quests) and I could rarely fail a quest, mostly because of the previous issue, etc.

I want to be allowed to be an idiot in the game. If I sell a quest related item, and screw up a quest, that's my own fault. If I kill a character essential to the main quest, tough luck. I mean, what's wrong with a small "Reload. You've screwed up the main quest." message, ala Morrowind? My choices should have consequences, and learning through failure was my favourite part of Morrowind. I often didn't reload, to fully suffer consequences, which could lead to some interesting gameplay. For example, I may not reload after having accidentally killed someone, and live the life of an outlaw, which I otherwise never would have thought of. Or perhaps forcing myself to take the backroute of the main quest.

It felt good to not be able to complete a quest if I've neglected it. If I lose Caius Cosades package, for example, I'll never be able to do the main quest properly, because I've neglected the mission and messed up completely. My own damn fault.

This also seems to be very extendable with Skyrim's system. If I've killed someone not related to the main quest (no reload message), they could be replaced by a new NPC.

I'd like to suggest a simple togglable option that allows us to remove this stuff. Perhaps multiple ones for multiple aspects? Some kind of "Safe Mode" could allow me to never fail at anything.

And yes, I know I'm an Oblivion bashing troll or whatever. :rolleyes:

On another note: Werewolves. This is something I'd actually like to see some idiot proofing on. Being a Werewolf in Morrowind had one major flaw: I couldn't properly live the life of a terrorizing werewolf. It would only take me a few days to reduce the population of a town to 0, which would really ruin the immersion. All I could really do is attack a few random bandits in the wilderness, which was rather dull. Who cares about Bandits? And on Vvardenfell, it was even more ridiculous, with a major lack of respawning NPC's. I want to see NPC's occasionally survive an attack, and merely be mortally wounded, rather than dead. A healer could heal them, and some may choose to keep thier Lycanthropy, allowing for a pack based system to evolve. Of course, not everyone would survive, and the majority would be replaced by new NPC's ala Skyrim's shopkeepers.

It seemed they tried to touch on this issue with Hircine's Ring, but I really found that to be rather cheap. Apart from the fact that the ring should, imo, represent Daggerfall's ring more, it made Lycanthropy redundant, more than it did fix issues. It did nothing if I was a proper werewolf. It was also FAR TOO EASY to find.

I suppose this may be why it was scrapped in Oblivion.

Discuss.

I'm all for werewolves and I agree that Bloodmoon werewolves could of been improved on! I mean why have super speed, strength and etc in only werewolf form? In Daggerfall, in human form you were also strong and powerful.

Note: I don't want to be an uber werewolf, but maybe we can be slightly stronger than normal people.

I like being an idiot as well. I hate games when they are too easy you never feel like you've really accomplished anything. If you sell an item essential to a quest to a merchant it shouldn't disappear from the game completely, but you should have to back track to find it again, if you drop it in the wilderness somewhere because you've ran out of space in your inventory and you find a nice sword you might be a bit screwed then though. :facepalm:

Try real life. You obviously don't get enough negative stuff in yours since you want to feel it during your entertainment hours. -_-

Personally I'd like to spend my leisure time in a simple and foolproof virtual reality since I have a lot of things to cope in real reality.

Add this to the Options menu:

[__] Herp Derp Checkbox

i like the first idea

I 100% agree.
Nothing detracts from the open-world feel more than this kind of hand holding. It breaks immersion and it makes the game too 'gamey'.
I also want to be able to fail.
Lose quest items, kill the wrong person, but also fail at potion making, spellcasting etc.
Especially the NPC's in Oblivion with their horrible crowny symbol took a lot of realism out of the world. It divided the NPC's into quest givers and unimportant and I dont want to know wich NPC will play a role in a quest before I find the quest.
I dont want to feel like Im on a pre-set path and nothing can derail me. I want an open world where I can do what I want.

Yeah I inderstand that, however there should be an option within the difficulty setting to allow you to select exactly how hard/realistic you want to be able to play the game so then everyone gets what they want.

How long would it take for a developer to put that option in 10 mins maybe?

The problem with that is that you cant fit enough buttons on a screen for everything people want optional.
I do not believe it should be optional. NPC's should be killable and quest items should not scream to me they are one. They should have weight and be sellable. This is an RPG that boasts a free and open world. The Oblivion system was anything but that because it told me what was important before I wanted to know.

I agree with the OP 100% on this. It's good for all of us to fail a little sometimes, it builds character. :thumbsup:

I like the thread title.

Bethesda has to choose something.

Cater to small group of hardcoe fans.

Cater to large group of casual fans who provide the most sales.


Sorry, but videogames have gone mainstream and we are going to continue to see more idiot-proofing.

Just, mod it out.

I agree completely. Sadly, I also feel we're both bound to be disappointed. Apparently "consequences" is a four-letter word at Bethesda these days, and it has been replaced by "idiot-proof." You cannot fail, no quest can be closed off to you, you're guaranteed to succeed at everything somehow. In some cases, despite your best efforts to the contrary you will still succeed. And it sounds like they're making sure Skyrim is the most foolproof yet, what with relatives to replace slain quest-givers. People who will return dropped items. "Dammit, I've tried to throw this thing away 9 times and some [censored] brings it back every time! AAAUGH!" (Yay for respawning containers...I call'em "garbage cans" for a reason) I yearn for the days when gaming wasn't like the Special Olympics, and failure was indeed an option myself. But dinosaurs like you and I are outnumbered...now it's "beat the game in record time, get all the acheivements to show what a great gamer you are, and move on!" and the game companies are pandering to that demographic.

I'd rather not have irrevocable failure... There were plenty of quests in Oblivion I failed because I lost an item or killed the wrong person.

The "Essential" and "Quest Item" flags in Oblivion weren't there to save the player from making mistakes, they were there to save the script from getting stuck in gridlock because of an inability to deal with certain situations that would happen if the wrong person were to die, or wrong item got lost. (Wait for NPC to show up: NPC does not show up because you killed him long ago... How long do you feel like waiting?)

That is I think because Bethesda are trying to cater for their hardcoe fan base whilst at the same time trying to entice new gamers (less hardcoe gamers if you like) to play their games. Without the options to choose how difficult you want it you are never going to be able to please everyone. Bethesda need to bring new gamers into the picture because they need a revenue stream to continue making the games we all love.

Maybe it should be included within the hardcoe mode already debated on this forum, whereby all items can be sold and all quest essential NPC's can be killed by the player without being informed before hand they are essential.

Stupidity! YAY!

I hate easy games, I wan't them to be complicated, I want to feel like im actually experiencing the same difficulties as my toon.

I don't think that they would make it possible to mess up the main quest or any sort of guildline quests. However, due to the new radiant story system or whatever it's called, perhaps in Skyrim you could kill off NPCs or lose quest items and the quest gets removed from your quest log. Because that would be extremely annoying to have uncompleted quests in your questlog that are impossible to complete now.

Should be an option. Like with quest markers. It's so intrusive and it sometimes feels like if it was made for 12 year olds when the game is 18+.
Let me be smart, let me be stupid, let me think.

At the very least, let there be an option, dammit :<

I don't know, these more casual gamers often say how they dislike an easy game, and what-not. Perhaps Bethesda should try it, and see the reaction? I mean, they're constantly barraging us with these kind of features, perhaps the opposite side of the demographic may actually like a harder game?

Because keeping some annoyances would add more difficulty and depth into the game... right.

I halfway agree with the main quest part, if you can kill the main guy, then there have to be an unfailable, probably harder backdoor. Typing out "You've made your game unwinnable lol" is just a big middle finger, they might as well just throw you back to the main screen...

As for quest items, one of the more interesting things Morrowind had was that most of these items were indistinguishable from normal everyday items, and sometimes you could even just counterfeit them. Still, Ultima taught me how losing an item required to complete the main quest can be quite the pain there should be something to help you get back, a quest arrow (yes, those evil, exploration ruining ones) or you could get them from another source or something.

And I still don't know why that Radiant Story example is considered as one. You kill the owner, it is logical that somebody else will take over the shop, and she won't like you. A lot more realistic than an unnoticed empty shop in the middle of town... It IS a consequence of your actions.

As for Werewolves... if you don't want people to die, don't kill them leave when they're heavily hurt or something...
Then again, I don't really understand the issue here, I haven't played that part of Morrowind yet...

I, again, propose a system where "essential" NPCs can ONLY be killed by the player. People seem to forget or not acknowledge that NPCs were essential in Oblivion because of Radiant AI and the high possibility of other NPCs or creatures killing quest-related NPCs while the player had no part in it, or wasn't even around and totally oblivious that it happened. Players killing these NPCs should also result in the "You killed a quest-essential NPC" message.

Also, I say no to being able to sell quest objects. At the end of the day, the Elder Scrolls series is a series of video games, and I think the majority of players probably put the game in with the intent of playing a video game. Selling a quest item by accident, or dropping it in a random spot to make room for something else, and finding out days later that you're permanently locked out of the main quest, is probably the most frustrating thing that could happen. Yeah, sure, it's my fault, but who gives a damn? I now have to either resort to cheating to get that item back, or I have to start the game ALL OVER. That's a major inconvenience just for a moment of carelessness and a complete mistake. That could be up to a hundred hours--maybe more considering some people put it off for a long time--down the drain.

Why don't they just make it part of the difficulty slider? At easy setting, Quest NPCs can't be killed, Quest Items can't be lost, etc. At Hardest setting, all those things can happen.

Even though it's pie in the sky and there's absolutely no way in the world that Beth would consider alienating the ragequitters, I'd love to see failure be a constant possibility. I sincerely don't even understand the point of playing a game if you always succeed no matter what.

But we're definitely in the minority on that. It seems that most gamers now not only want to be able to succeed no matter what, but also want to be given an achievement for it.

You insult my suggestion then go on to agree with it? What? :confused:



I need to kill people to survive as a werewolf. My health will drain itself every hour unless I've killed enough.


Or perhaps you could just go with the flow and see where it takes you? Perhaps there's some backpath to the quest you would never have otherwise known of? Perhaps this leaves more room for your next character? Why do you need to do absolutly everything on every single character?

Bethesda doesn't need to clip its wings to get a larger audience i mean the hell its not like on the box it says

Heya! now 90% more streamlined, we made it so you don't have to Think Derp! buy now, buy now! buuuy now!

there are no disclaimers that say this box is availible for a wider audience, a wider audience doesnt come out of the blue, the game needs to stick....

Bethesda only needs to make a solid game to stay in business. If it lives up to the spirit of its predecessors, the old fans will be happy, and new fans will naturally come into the fold by seeing how attractive it looks. Bringing in new customers is the absolutely worst excuse to make a series stagnant when it comes to "its being used in every other rpg". Honestly, you might as well say that Bethesda should just release smaller TES games every year, with only minor tweaks in between them. That's a strategy that's worked for EA and Activision in "gaining a wider audience" it works right?



lets not..