I am by no means unsatisfied with TESO, so it's not 'one of those fix-it rants'. I've actually enjoyed beta very much.

However, there is one facet I wish MMO's abroad would consider in the future, or somehow convert (very unrealistic), and that is a level-less design concept. ES titles had this to a degree but it usually auto-scaled mobs to your level. This really made the exploration that much more unrestricted, and produced some of the funniest/entertaining moments I've had in gaming.

Now to the meat of my suggestion: Instead of progressively weighting stats per level, I would like to see a standard stat scale for "all levels"; attributes scaled to particular racials caps with some rare exceptions derived from talents, passives or abilities. How this is relevant to a level-less design? In most MMO's, I see the inflation of stats per level create (indirectly) that rail roaded feeling in content that, I believe, most gamers have grown weary of.

To draw a better image of what I'm saying, consider the current stat systems in most MMORPG's: I'll try to keep this light, as a matter of brevity for the uninitiated in pen and paper: usually mmo's have some mix of a percentile based check system, weighted with your relevant stats vs your foe.

I don't have a problem with this in theory, but its implementation by MMO developers become weighted too arbitraily per level... roughly put... in ratio, it's really the same chance of success at any other level. Its like a fast hands magic trick really: your thinking that with this extra stat increase or new ability you have become more powerful in some fashion, but with enough counters from npc's and players, its just playing rock paper scissors in a fancier, progressive, yet clumsy way (railroading content too much).

There may be different possible types of combinations of rocks, scissor or papers you can aquire (the only intrigue with it), but the stats in general, are in ratio the same at all levels. So.... how hard is it really (if starting from scratch) to design content that is purely open to anyone at any 'level'? I sure think it would alleviate the headache of QA a fair amount; you wouldn't have to worry so much about tweaking at a per level basis.

So, my armchair general solution is this:

1. Produce a system with no level weight bonuses/negatives

2. a general stat scale (ie 1-10) that is a categorical reference of value range, diametric in its operation of resolution and nearly exponentially different between values. (and all fixed - unchangeable in value)

3. rare attribute increases from backgrounds, items, abilites or other passives

4. Hard Racial Caps (for everything) with few exceptions (because of #3)

5. Incremental 'cookie' increases in skills / proficiencies via level or use of skill level

6. Ultra-Comprehensive, career based skill trees.

The 'big number' hysteria from gamers is waning; indirectly from apathy. Yet still, most cannot put their thumb on this issue and are missing the fundamental problem; the stat scale.

I don't think this is the sole problem in all of MMO design land, as I think there are major issues regarding resources created out of virtual thin air in an MMO ecosystem... but that's reserved for a future post.

Any comments are welcome, thanks,

Cheers,

Its way too late in the game now to be altering the main design. It will never happen no matter how plausible the suggestion is.

I know, it's just food for thought

This just couldn't be more wrong.

I'd like to preface this that I have only played Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim, but easily played 1000 hours or more between them. The only TES titles that had scaling was Oblivion, which was without a doubt the worst of the titles (of the 3 I mentioned) with Skyrim having a little bit of Scaling but again lacked the immersive feeling Morrowind gave you. Morrowind was hard, there were limits to where you could go and what you could do. Wandering into dungeons wasn't something you did haphazardly, you sneaked, you had your weapons and armor at the ready, you had an amulet of recall, you had potions; YOU WERE PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO EVERYTHING AROUND YOU!

There was no way around it, you either got stronger, you resigned yourself to the fact that you couldnt explore that area, but as a result of that, it brought about a desire to become stronger, to build yourself up to being able to kill that guard, to reach the end of that dungeon, to slaughter the entire town if you so chose. But it made you work for it, stat gains were something you worked for, you planned for, you couldn't just randomly level skills without wasting your attribute points, you had to plan for your level up, you had to actively take an interest in what skills and attributes you wanted to level.

OR

You didn't, that was always an option, but you were less powerful because of it, there was a penalty, not immediately obvious to you, but there nonetheless. It opened itself to both the hardcoe and the casual, those who wanted the difficult and lucrative path could take it, and those who just wanted to make their way at their own pace could do so as well, albeit much more slowly. There is nothing good about making everything accessible, it's unrealistic, it destroys immersion and it dampens the desire to improve, the desire to get stronger and better to explore and uncover what it is you want.

For those more stupid (like myself) I need to get this straight;

Are you trying to say that an MMO should;
(not necessarily SHOULD - but your "idea is thus")


Have no 'levels' and no real 'stats' - save for the ones you start with which is determined by race
The enemies also have no 'levels' and 'stats' - save for their race

...and this...fixes a...problem..that involves us not *actually* becoming more powerful (because as we become more powerful - so do the enemies)?

*genuinely not being an ass, really want to know*

I wasn't saying it in absolute terms, it was a generalization with some exceptions (like guards, giants, some dungeons, etc). ES titles didn't limit so much the freedom to move around most of the content like the way MMO's do.

Though, I don't know what exactly you are objecting to (in my OP) other than ^ exceptions???

Something like that. In essence making attribute scores ( and items) more stable and fixed, and focusing the level cookie incentive around skill proficiencies.

The difference between stats in my proposed scale would make, lets say, a strength score of 3 vs 4 very noticable. The reason for this big difference is for the element of contrast that would need to be reestablished, and to ensure there is enough room to fit bigger powerful enemies under the maximum ceiling (because the stat scale maxes at 10). So, something with a stat rating of a 10, would represent an extreme end of the scale, like a gigantic dragon.

Any attribute bonuses from character creation (like background or race) or through some other rare gameplay means, would be regarded with more value as well - So for example, racial bonuses would really be distinguished or an item that granted more Strength, would really mean something. This is more a tangent though...

Nah.

Morrowind is possibly my all time favourite game but one of the few things I think Oblivion did better was level scaling. The freedom to just wander wherever and poke about in whatever ruin took my fancy was nice. And because of the way mobs levelled if I happened to stumble back into one of those later the mobs would be of a difficulty capable of challenging me. I'm aware from comments in various forums that not everyone liked this but I did.

Possibly a bit less realistic, sure. But so are lots of other things about games and we just roll with those and I was happy to add this to them for the added freedom.

Skyrim... I didn't like its level scaling. Would be getting off topic going into that though.

would counter this argument but NDA.

but srsly.. right now lvl up not worth a much as u think + grouping can allow you to take on harder content earlier if you so choose.

Yea, I haven't leveled too far in ESO beta to fairly judge how dramatic the scaling is. Thus far [NDA][NDA][NDA][NDA][NDA]

Although you can argue that it was nice to be able to do (wander in any direction oblivion style), you can't really argue that it was a positive feature to a TES game. I particularly disagree with your comment about things in TES being unrealistic, as I believe the franchise on a whole spends a great deal of time and effort avoiding being unrealistic in any way (outside of the confines of the world itself, i.e magic and mythology etc). Also again I don't really see the appeal to wandering back to a cave that you cleared when you were level 3, which had bandits wearing leather and iron armor and then returning at 30 and finding a bandit in better gear than you (which you have obtained through slaying and defeating some of the toughest enemies in the entire world, supposedly a feat only you are meant to be capable of. I mean seriously who cares about being the hero of Kvatch when every tom, dike and harry bandit can match you hours of gameplay later). To me that shows the ultimate lack of progress within the game

Level scaling makes you feel like you arent getting stronger like nothing else, because relative to the world, you aren't getting any stronger, and as I said earlier, you are hardly a hero of the world when the everyday monsters and bandits are just as powerful as you at any given time. Granted when the enemies don't scale eventually you reach a point where you are stronger than everything, but with the AI now in place this can be avoided by random radiant encounters, and by having a content depth long enough to prevent you ever properly reaching this point (this is especially true in the MMO setting where content is generally constantly updated and you have to continuously strive to progress your character further and further)

I understand what you're getting at, my main issue is just that in order to keep the game fluid, realistic and immersive you cant just throw out the zoning model altogether. At least, I don't believe doing so brings about as much benefit as it would detract resources in order to develop an alternative. To me having soft logical barriers to moving around the world is not that bad of a thing, I think that provided the story and environment that you are "soft locked" to is enjoyable and stimulating and giving people the freedom to just ignore this and wander in random direction infinitely (until they hit the end of the continent? or just swim off the edge of the world? who knows where you draw the line) really doesn't add all that much to the game.

I really do think that aimless exploration is an idea highly over-rated, and I question if it was implemented the longevity of this style of play. I mean the easiest way to show this is that if you look at a standard MMO at max level, you can walk in any direction you choose to explore, this is especially true for those who choose to use dungeon finder of pvp experience grinds as opposed to questing. Now short of wandering into the relevant parts of each zone in order to get an explorer title, how much do you think the freedom to go where ever you like is appreciated. The only thing that really inspires you to go somewhere is if it is a place of relevance, the zoning system while leveling tailors a place of relevance for you every step of the way, you can either choose to leave early and move to a more challenging region, or stay behind to make the journey easier in the long run.

All in all I just think that it's an unrealistic expectation of the game, and honestly the depth of the zones that you find in this game especially is phenominal, from searching for skyshards, to finding chests and resources (of which you always have the relevant gathering skill), to mini dungeons, to the occasional unique foe, to beautiful landscapes. There is more than enough motivation to completely explore the zone you are currently in, and seeing as zenimax made the effort to remove any temporal quest requirements (i.e the quests do not have pre-requisite quests outside of each quests own line) you really can wander off in a direction and find things to do in that area. Hell Paul Sage even came out and said there is nothing to stop you picking up quests designed for people well above your level (there is no level requirement on quests, hinting that zones outside the starting zones and outside the beta won't be gated), the only thing that will stop you is the quest being too difficult.

Well I can argue that a sandbox is superior, but that would be an arugment too subjective. I understand your feelings regarding it all too well; I've met a variety of people turned off by such freedom because they had no direction in the game. Really though, there are many people that do like and want this. It's a play style not seen in an MMO yet (done with AAA budget that is).

Also, don't get me wrong, I'm not against some form of soft lock in content, but usually in MMO's or even single player games, its done so with a non-immersive or inconsistent way. For example, if you are out galavanting in the woods and a 12 foot tall minotaur materializes in front of you, in most MMO's, the player starts looking for level con consideration and then either kewly pew pew it with ease, or just merely tip-toe around with a "meh". The simple thought portrayed by the mechanics of the game should illicit a simple universal feeling: oh [censored]!. This "numb bumb habbit" isn't just from jaded player syndrome, but I think is a trained effect brought to you by the classical MMO level/zone template. I don't care what level you are, a 12 foot tall whatever, should be a universal terror, for any level.

Size is one facet: its just an example about how the classic MMO level system mutes the stats. It also has the carry over effect of zoning, since you have to abstractly put creatures by level assignment; its more about business than the grandeur of the creature or relevance of the area..... this is probably the major, crappy thing about any zoning theory. However, keep in mind, I'm not for making all content difficulty universally mediocre or anything like that; just an authentic representation for the difficulty.... that's my idea of 'soft locking'. To do so, requires a static attribute and item scale that is consistent and effective in all levels and zones.

I am glad to hear TESO is approaching this differently, my experience cannot be said quite yet [NDA]. I'm glad they removed 'temporal quest requirements', I missed that memo while playing apparently. Should be interesting.... when I start branching around to explore. Also, please understand, I've greatly enjoyed the beta thus far Wish I could have played more.

Morrowind had it right with no level scaling, if you found it too hard in a dungeon you left it till later. Oblivion RUINED things with its auto scaling, took me hours to get glass armour only then to find every bandit in game suddenly also had this rare expensive item....maybe I missed the buy one get one free sale or something?

None the less it massively took away from the immersion of the game because you never gained the feeling of having achieved anything!

Not an argument. A fact.

I found it nice. I didn't claim everyone did because I know they didn't.

But I know I did.

You can't argue I didn't.

Again you misrepresent what I said.

I said there are unrealistic elements in all games. Magic for instance. Most people (rightly or wrongly) don't believe in it. But they happily accept it in RPGs. We suspend disbelief in many ways when playing almost any game like ESO.

You don't have to see the appeal for me to enjoy it.

But if you're genuinely interested in trying to understand my point of view...

Where you see lack of progress, I see parallel evolution and a dynamic world. Ok I'm getting stronger. So are the bad guys. Good for them for not being lazy bastards just sitting around on their butts all day.

YOU feel that way. Not everyone does.

How you feel isn't invalid but it's not a universal truth. Games can be designed with other ways to provide a sense of progression.

I'm actually not unhappy with ESO's current level based system.

But as I pointed out in another thread, the megaserver theoretically could very easily cater to both crowds.

Have a config option in settings where you select 'level based zones' (default, and how things currently are) or 'free roaming'. Then have the megaserver level content up or down (just apply multipliers to magicka,stamina,health etc.). No need to change anything else. You could also change the harvestable material nodes but personally I wouldn't.

EXAMPLE

You're a level 12 free roamer and decide to visit a level 40 zone.

The megaserver checks to see if a level 10-20 version of the zone exists. If it does you get dropped into it. If not it creates one and then drops you into it.

You'd probably find the mobs there a little more challenging (AI might be better and the mobs might have more skills) but you wouldn't be blicked and might do fine with a same level friend along.

____

It seems they're already doing something similar to this with end-game content.

You can take the character and go back through the other alliances, but all of the content is scaled to level 50. So you can start playing through another chunk of content, but everything is harder. Once you've played through all of that, you can do it again through the remaining alliance, but everything is even harder. We call it "50+" and "50++."

Sure, those two groups of players are unlikely to cross paths very often until level 50. But they'd both be enjoying the game more according to their own particular tastes in a way that doesn't detract from the other's enjoyment.

Lol I agree.

It's been awhile since I've played morrowind, but I recall finding some of the most insane pieces of gear early on; it felt like just over the next hill I would find something just as bizzare or intrinisic in value. Good times....

Apparently Skyrim and Oblivion's inhabitants were preppers; just waiting for you to hit X level and bust out the good stuff, lol

Makes me think of how unthinkably a bad idea it was to level-scale artifacts in Oblivion. Completely ruined the value (both real and emotional) of the unique items you found.

If you want to go explore the world. Do it on skyrim or something like that. This is a eso mmo, they don't do it your way with npc going your level. If they do that then its no fun at all. If you want to explore the whole map then I suggest you lvl up to 50 that way you can explore anywhere to your liking Ain't nobody got time fo dat to hold you by the hand. Rubbish

Sorry for the 2nd post. My phone lagged.

Agreed it took away so much from the game!

I remember getting boots of blinding speed in Morrowind and then having to try and enchant an item to remove the blinding the boots caused, they were tough to get but they made it feel as though you had accomplished something. I never really got the same feeling in Oblivion as everything just scaled alongside me.
Skyrim kinda fell in the middle, you could get some pretty epic items and they did give the feeling of being powerful while everything around you didn't seem to just jump up a notch and suddenly be as strong as you were.

My biggest problem with Skyrim was that I could always craft something that was better than the stuff I found. The enchantment restrictions in Morrowind prevented that (except for weapons, enchanted daedric weapons were unbeatable), unique armors felt really amazing and it felt good when you found them. I remember the first time I discovered the Dragonbone Cuirass (or whatever it was called), the treasure hunting experience in Morrowind had never felt so strong as when I discovered the ruins underwater that one time. Now I feel sad that Beth discarded that kind of exploration.

Not hungry. GW2 was something like that. Hated it. Boring to the extreme.

I think if this was ever put in a MMO, it wouldn't work. What ESO has right now seems good.

not being an ass but my first thought on reading this was

look a MMo made for Communism. I much prefer the capitalist approach of hard work earns good returns on investment ( in game anyway )

Wow I never knew Oblivion was a communist game!

see its true you learn something new everyday