None of the "hard-core RPG" people ever seem very hardcoe to me... I don't think how hardcoe or serious a gamer claims to be, nor how long he spends playing, has much bearing on level scaling. I mean, I can't think of an RPG without any level scaling, and Morrowind certainly isn't one.



Ah, okay, I remember a dev reassuring us that Skyrim's level scaling was "like Fallout 3's level scaling," or something similar. And now that I think about it, I can't imagine Bethesda would be silly enough to lock every dungeon to the player's actual level, given the almost complete lack of linearity of TES games.

Read two posts above you and/or one above this one.

It's going to be like Fallout 3. Or at least closer to that (which of itself is closer to morrowind) than Oblivion.

I can think of many RPGs without level scaling, but most of them have a set linear progression to tell a story rather than providing an open world.

Skooma - Dude, I think you are making this out to be something that it is not. I am just speculating, but this makes a lot of sense: Say you go out exploring at level 5 deep into the mountains, enter a dungeon that is ranked as a level 20-25 area. The dungeon locks at level 20 because you are only a level 5. You get whooped and vow to return when you are stronger. So you go increase your level to 10 and think you are something special, go back to the dungeon and get whooped again, vowing to return again. Finally you are a level 18 and you go find the infamous "I got whooped" dungeon, beat the enemies by a small margin because of your gaming skills, and reap the rewards of said dungeon. Now, because it was locked at level 20 the majority of the loot is scaled to level 20. However, given the demand of the gaming public for more hand placed items, I would expect Bethesda to have some 'special' loot that is up to level 25 and placed there in particular by the devs.

On the other hand, say you enter the same dungeon at level 30. The dungeon locks to level 25 and the enemies are stronger (to give a challenge) but you still rip right through them. The loot is still mostly at level 25 with the same hand placed items as before. Overall you get better items but not by a huge margin (+/- 5 levels). Thus, you don't feel like the fact that you waited until you were a high level played a HUGE role in the rewards for the dungeons, like in Oblivion.

As long as they keep the level range at about 5 levels I think it will work out fine. It makes the dungeons feel more like they were set to be a certain level but gives you more of a challenge if you are WAY above the dungeon's level range. It also keeps farming dungeon's to a relative minimum since you can't just go to the closest dungeon outside a city and loot it 50 times to get better items as you level up.

Now, you will have perks til level 50. So the game it's planned to be played at that level, offering new challenges. And as have been said, I think that "level locked" dungeons will have a max and a min.

A lot of games have areas that are locked until you complete a quest or reach a certain level, so I think this is a good thing and I am happy to see it. See, here is the senario: I stumble across a locked dungeon and I can't get in, however now it is marked on my map so when I can get in I don't have to go looking for it again, and more importantly it leaves me something to strive for. I want to get into that dungeon to find out what is there and when I finally can the reward will be that much better...

Interesting indeed, the OP seems to have gone missing ages ago, i doupt he ever understood the few possibilities that this locked level dungeons stuff could mean, oh well.

So, theory 1:
It gets fixed at your level, when you enter it, no matter when you enter it. Enter a dungeon at lvl 1, it will be lvl 1 forever.
Theory 2:
It gets fixed at a level, depending on what dungeon it is and your current level. Dungeons would have min/max levels, meaning they'll never go under X and never over Y, where Y probably is 5-10 levels bigger than X.

Theory 3:
It gets fixed in either way 1 or way 2, but killing the inhabitants / most of the inhabitants / taking the treasure, would cause the dungeon to respawn it's population, now with an updated level scaling depending on your level, in either way 1 or way 2.

I don't think bethesda would make the level system this simple this time around, they've surely spent the past 2 years thinking of this and I doupt we can imagine what it will be in a few weeks. So my main message would be: relax and wait 6 months, and then start complaining.

thats almost as bad as level scaling :facepalm:

Right... but it isn't exactly official confirmation from the devs. Your explanation makes sense, don't get me wrong, but I hope we can get confirmation soon. Do you know if anyone's asked about this yet in the Game Informer comments section?

Yeah, I know it's not exact. I don't know if anyone has asked, but I'll go look and if not I'll post a question about it.

This subject may literally make or break Skyrim.
The most disappointing part of Oblivion for me was never once encountering an enemy that was far beyond my skill.

Let me explain, I'm a stealth character. It's my job to sneak past severely over-leveled mobs to get my hands on severely over-leveled loot. If I'm spotted, I die. I like that approach and I have no idea how to get my fix in Oblivion. Every single dungeon is boring to me because I know it's going to contain the same stuff as every other dungeon I've seen in recent levels. Yes, Morrowind gave a great deal of fear and punishment toward players who were venturing beyond their 'safe zones'. GOOD! That's where I want to be, outside my safe zone! I like taking chances, unlocking a trapped chest behind a shopkeeper and stealthing my way through Dwemer ruins to find valuable artifacts without waking the inhabitants.

It makes the world feel big, and the player feel small. As if it weren't bad enough that in Oblivion all of the mobs are my level, in Skyrim MOST OF THEM ARE GOING TO BE BELOW MY LEVEL?! I have a better idea. Lock the levels at the highest point and don't even wait for me to explore the cave. I'm level 1 and I want to explore a level 45-50 cave? Lock it at 50, before I even get there. When I'm level 50 I still want to be able to enjoy something. If all my level 50 dungeons have been locked at 45 because I ... wanted to play the game(?) ... I will be very, very disappointed. Scrap the loot leveling. Scrap the enemy leveling. Scrap the dungeon leveling. Let me FIGURE IT OUT MYSELF! PLEAAAASE!

Euhrr... as have been explained, it won't be like Oblivion. Have you played Fallout? It'll be something like that. That means that if you go to a zone with hard enemies at the beggining, it will be clearly above your possibilities. It'll be locked, yes, but that doesn't mean you can kill everything. There is a max and a min, as far as I know.

About your problem with Oblivion... if you play it in your computer, there are mods that solve that.

I am just wondering if it will lead us to the places we havent been to for RS otherwise we will be lost for a long time.
I still don't understand the lock leveling system, like if I go into a place at level 2 and the lock level for it is 5-15, will it lock (stay) at level 5 since that is the minimum and my leveled character is closer to that? What happends if I level up again and lets say I am level 17 now yet go back to that same place, will the level raise to the max of 15 for that area or stay the same when I first entered at lock level 5?
If that is how it is than thats fine,I would just prefer not being able to go to a certain area lets say if I am level 20 and monsters in said area are level 45, than to give me some type of journal warning or something instead of having to think about all this level lock stuff

Exactly my thoughts. I did not even finish FO3 as it was not open enough and had that controlled take-me-by-the-hand feeling which ruins all immersion.

It just means you have to grind levels until you get to level 20 then there won't be any problems. I don't like the idea of level locking dungeons but I need to see this system in action before I make judgement on it.

Even if that was the case Skyrim is being created on a level 1-50 scale. I say that because 50 is the "soft cap" which means, any level after that you don't get to choose a perk and leveling is just extremely difficult at 50. I know you could potentially hit 50 in past games as well, but they never had a system that kept going until 50. :shrug:
And if it's like Fallout 3 as they have stated previously and recently (see below) then that won't be the case. I,e you can still run into a dungeon that's level 50 for instance at level 1.

Nick Breckon answered me on twitter and basically said what we already know. Hopefully this question can be addressed on the GI podcast thursday or a new Bethesda podcast sometime soon

http://twitter.com/#!/OutlanderDF/status/32467456853282816
@nickbreckon can you clarify this: In Skyrim level locked dungeons means if I enter a level 40-50 dungeon at level 1 it locks to 40 right?

http://twitter.com/#!/nickbreckon/status/32468024023842816
@OutlanderDF I'm no expert on the subject. Easiest way to explain it is that it's akin to Fallout 3's system.

....or two dozen minotaurs in a dungeon which previously held two dozen imps just a few game weeks ago.

This is the same as Morrowind. What's the problem?

This is likely true. They used the same system in Fallout 3 too, if I'm not completely mistaken.

But what I don't understand is why do they lock the levels permanently after I enter them? What purpose does that serve?

Yeah, you'll say that now. Boo hoo.

Is it better than the Oblivion system? Yes. Is that saying much? No.

This is how it should be. Every cave/dungeon/ruin will be a certain level when the game starts. The distribution should be a bell curve...such as 50 low level, 100 mid level, and 50 high level. Obviously there would be varying tiers, so chances are even at level 5 you could find a level 10 dungeon that you can still beat. They wouldn't all be level 1, level 25, and level 50.

Now, after you clear a dungeon, it will respawn within a game week, or two. This could vary as well. The enemies that respawn then will be random, though perhaps influenced by your level. So if you are level 40, clear out a level 5 dungeon and come back, it will respawn between level 5-40.

Todd, put down that vault boy figurine and take notes.

In Morrowind BS went to one extreme, in Oblivion in many aspects to the other, like harvestable plants growing back ridiculously fast instead of very slowly, so if they now take the middle road, Skyrim can be a good game.



All right. I really should go read the mentioned article now.



You are bringing back fond memories of first having to use a probe to disarm the trap and only then picking the lock.



Most people won't want to wait and will dislike this apparoach. In 2010 we want what we want and we want it NOW.



I believe he was saying that there is no problem in that regard. However, what exactly is the point of "level-locking" a dungeon to 45-50 compared to just making it a level 45 cave or a level 50 cave? At least in this extreme example the whole scheme seems pointless.

PS. Bandits never wore Daedric hardware IIRC. You are thinking of Marauders. Bandits always use light armor.

What about the people who don't follow the game as closely as we do and don't know about the dungeon level lock? More importantly what about players who like to avoid quests and mainly explore? This is going to kill that by locking out good loot from explorers?

It makes it so if you enter a dungeon with a range of 6-15 at level 1, you'll be be able to raid it later at level 6 without going "crap, they scaled with me and are still higher" and be unable to effectively raid the dungeon until you get closer to the max value of the level cap. Basically it promotes keeping ass kicking but not to a ridiculous extreme where you need to grind and grind and grind. This also means another important thing.

Say the mentioned 6-15 dungeon you went into initially at level 2. You get knocked around, and decide to level up and get some better equipment. You return level 6, and clear everything out. After awhile of waiting and respawning occurs, you decide to come back to check on the dungeon. You're now level 12. Instead of finding creatures that are scaled to your level, they'll be at level 6 like before, and it gives you a sense of reward and power.

It's all about rewarding the player for hard work.

I like some aspects of this approach and dislike others. Having a fixed level system for dungeons is initially appealing because it allows the creators of the game to control how much content is available at what level of the game, making sure there are adequate dungeon experiences for your character at each level. However, it also creates a very rigid narrative of how the player is supposed to move through the world, thus leading to the 'hand-holding' effect. In one way or another, strict leveling will put the player's course through the dungeon crawl in the hands of the programmer.

That being said, I do like the idea of dungeons being re-purposed for higher-level quests once completed; save for the fact that all in-world loot will be missing the second time through (you know, the good stuff) and all you will be left with is the level-specific randomized loot coming from containers. Not only that, but why would you want to have the same dungeon experience twice? Didn't we do that ENOUGH in Oblivion? That's a huge draw of Skyrim's dungeons, they are vast and varied! (So we are to expect, anyway...)

Well, I've kind of contradicted my initial post. I am in favor of loot of all levels being available to bold (and sneaky) adventurers who find ways through high-level defenses, but I am not in favor of being told when to go where in the game world (especially if I want to take a few levels to myself and upgrade my town-friendly abilities instead of adventuring). That being said, the lore should be a huge driving factor in getting players to explore new dungeons and specific times. Players should come across books and characters detailing potential adventures (yes, like Morrowind!) at the appropriate levels. Unfortunately, this system might not work as well in an environment like Oblivion where all the locations were cramped together and fast travel made exploration almost a cheat.

The only way to make finding an out-of-the-way, too-high-level-for-me, full-of-precious-endgame-loot discovery enthralling to the player is for it to actually be... out of the way. (Not 30 seconds from a major town that allows fast travel, or immediately in view of the last low-level cave you have explored.) The world must be barren (to some degree) for these discoveries to feel significant. Otherwise, every player might share the same experience of finding rare items in the same places at the same times, and that completely defeats the point of looking for them in the first place.

Ultimately (if you would like a TL;DR, here it is) I think Bethesda is making the right choice with how they are leveling the world, but we have yet to see if it is implemented properly. I change my mind, Bethesda may yet know... exactly what they are doing. Just please, PLEASE BETHESDA, make the highest level loot non-randomized, non-container loot. I want to walk in and be awestruck by a glorious glass axe that entices me into a dungeon experience I might immediately regret, but can't stop attempting. That's when I feel most rewarded, and that's when I feel most appreciative of the items I am going to be using every 30 seconds for the next 200+ hours.


Well... Thoughts? Am I getting warmer?