if level scaling returns does that mean we will have to power level again i hate that system of leveling i want to pick skills im gonna need as major skills not stuff that makes no sense for my class

again. thats not the part of level scaling most people state they hated in OB (well, some people do not like that bandits got supped up weapons and armor at lv 20).

what we are talking about is top tier enemies (such as; nether lichs, brown bears, xalie *or what ever they were called* ) geting +40hp every time you level up which eventually they out paced you and you had to abuse tricks just to not get your ass handed to you.

and again, the above mentioned + 40hp and what else stat boost to enemies ever time the player leveled up... did not exist in FO3. once the strongest supermutants appeared, that was as strong as they get. the OB version was that the toughest enemies would get stronger and stronger with out a cap (that being what ever limit in level you could reach, but they got a health and stat boosts at higher rates than was possible for a player.)

There are no major skills or minor any more, are you aware of the changes they have made in SR to the way you level and handle skills?

To say that FO3's level-scaling was anything like Oblivion's is doing FO3 a strong disservice.
Did some of its particulars of implementation function much in the same way? Yes.
Did it present anywhere near the same feel? No. Level 20 in FO3, in terms of how fighting enemies played out, was incomparable to level 20 in Oblivion, or anything higher than level 20 in Oblivion.

Besides, they're using a FO3-like system, not FO3's system. And though some might see that as FO3's system plus a few new things, before we start getting into the mass critiquing of its parts, why don't we all wait until the game comes out and we can all experience how the whole functions?

And also, every Bethesda-developed game has had level-manipulated creatures in some form. Even though I loved OOO and I loved FONV, I recognize that a leveled system can and often does work to complement the game.


Regarding leveled loot, while I agree about no leveled quest rewards (something that, IIRC, hasn't been seen since Oblivion), every Bethesda-developed game (even Morrowind) has had leveled loot.
And regarding random quests, the general theme of the quest, the idea, isn't random. It's designed by a writer, just the same as a static quest. It's just that the more trivial particulars, such as the locations, have been randomized for a more dynamic-feeling world. That's not so bad, I feel. And besides, there will still be lots of static quests.

if it does return. don't power level, that was the whole problem that level scaling caused. the faster you leveled up the stronger enemies got but your own stats were too weak because you leveled up only major skills so its likely your endurance (health modifyer) will be lower, you armor rating will likely be lower since you leveled quickly (thus had little chance to let enemies beat on you to increase your armor level) and so on. avoiding leveling up as much as possible is how alot of people avoided level scaling. IE: a level 9 char with all major and armor skills at expert level.

Thats why they tossed out the major, minor, skill system if I am correct.

The most frustrating thing in morrowind was to get stuck in an area without being able to go further due to your low level and that there was nothing to do while waiting. Exploring was dull due to the graphics and there was nothing you could do in cities other than quests. The same problem would have appeared in Oblivion if it wouldn't have had level scaling. But now, things (I hope) will be different. If we have level scaling, let us at least do something fun while we wait to get better and not walk around doing nothing while casting 1000 restore health spells to increase restoration.

We'll want to level up due to those level 25 dungeons, but even if we go past 25, there would still be dungeons that provide us a challenge, further making us want to level up to 40 etc. I like what I've seen and heard so far

k thanks it made it svck being a pure mage trying to power level picking stuff that a pure mage would never use i just hope i can cast some of the better spells if i dont level to high

??? there was nothing that physically stopped any one from going to any area in MW. you would get killed if you tried to fight any of the tougher enemies, but you could avoid them. sure, you would have to discover which is beyond the abilities of a low level character with your first character you use in the game. but that was what was good about MW, you learned.

besides, there were hundreds of hours worth of quests and content for characters under level 5 in the calmer regions of MW, they just did not jump at you, you had to talk to npc's. MW enemies remained a challenge because they had special charateristics like spell asorb or summoning strong deadra. OB enemies just had more health and did more damage.

Yes, quests. But there needs to be more than quests for us to do, I mean the Skyrim graphics look so awesome already at this point that I could simply walk up and down the streets of a city in it

I like the idea of different level bandits. In the beginning, you would have to run from the ones you weren't strong enough to defeat, while others would be more of an even match.

It would also make sense that the lower level bandits would be near areas with less money, while higher levels would either be in organized groups, or near places that had more wealth.

No matter what - monsters should never level. Why would a giant spider get stronger just because MY strength went up - it doesn't make sense..

All this is just nit picking though - I haven't been this excited for a game in years.

I thought they said they are using Fallout's level system?

The thing is...I am getting the game on console because my computer is too old...so I won't be able to profite from the mods

I think im seeing things in almost the opposite way of how you look at it.

i know where a lot of you coming from but what is more important to me than the sense of "i grew powerful" is -

balance. balance in the worlds. balance in combat and it's challenge.


if there is no auto leveling than this means that in the beginning of the game i cant fight most of the enemies and i spent way too much time running away instead of having fun combat and leveling up through fun combat.
and later in the game i am so powerful that most of the world is filled with creatures i can beat in 2 hits and again - combat is not fun, no challenge. no tension. no reason to play better.

when the game dont do auto-leveling it means that in any given time only a small part of the world is fun and challenging. only the part that is MY level. the rest it either too easy or too hard to be fun and satisfying.

i enjoy a good combat where i need to fight good in order to win. in RPGs that dont have auto-leveling im only having fun if i follow the main quest and not much more. in Two worlds 2, which DOESNT have auto-leveling, i do a lot of side quests, i level up quicker than the devs intended and when i tackle a main story mission it is usually too easy and never satisfying. later in the game most of the game world is filled with un-satisfying combat.
in two worlds 2 i am about 60% through the game and now most of the game world not fun. the game becomes linear. the fun is always in the next quest and not in the rest of the world. why give me such a huge world if the fun is linear.
am i explaining myself well? i dont know....
look at Fable 3, for example - while i havent played it myself i read and heard from others that at some point u get so strong and so rich that buying stuffm improving, using potions or earning more money become unnecessary. than these game mechanics lose their purpose and no longer fun.

here is a sum of my POV about combat:
when a certain activity, like fighting, doesnt require emotional investment, like the tension u get when u try and defeat a powerful enemy, than this activity becomes a chore. a grind. if combat is always fun and always rewarding because u r always in a chance of conquering it, than there is always tension. always a reason to try your best. always being invested in it. in a game like Fable or assassins creed u level so high that combat is no longer interesting. it's just something u do in order to get what's BEYOND the combat. u r not having fun BECAUSE of the combat. combat becomes a means to an end instead of THE END itself. in a game like Skyrim combat happens so often that it must remain fun.

and about loot - i think its a lack of balance buying or looting a really powerful sword too early because from that point on there is no need to get better swords or weapons for a very long time. it makes the joy of finding loot redundant.

i also hate it when i find a sword that looks just like the one i already have but with a different grip and being told i cant wield it cuz my level is not high enough. a 5 year old can wield a sword. poorly but he can.


my solution to this? - i am not sure this is the best way to handle is since i never experienced a game that does this (didnt play FO or FO:NV but my idea is - auto leveling in numbers.
this means that when im level 3 i will encounter 5 enemies in level 1 in certain areas. if i level up to level 10 i will encounter groups of 7 enemies of level 1. i can still feel how i got stronger than these guys but i still have a challenge because there are more of them.
also spicing them up with an occasional higher level enemies here and there.

about loot - i think that higher level equipment that is too high for me should be possible by purchase or through quests that end in a chest. loot i find lying around or with enemies should be equivalent to mine or slightly lower or slightly higher. i think it's important to constantly find better stuff. not to jump 10 levels of equipment.

about high level equipment - maybe instead of finding weapons u cant use until u r in a higher level there can be equipment that requires, for example, level 20. if u r level 10 than u can still use that equipment but the damage u do with the equipment is lower as a result but the end potential of that equipment is higher than a level 10 equipment.
certain stuff make sense u couldt use like heavy weapons or armor or magical items. other items dont.

this is the way im looking at it. it's opposite of what most of you think but i think there is a large crowd that thinks like me.

I like the idea of different leveled bandits as well, but I don't know that rich areas should have more powerful bandits...really wealthy areas should have no bandits, they would be replaced by theives and assassins because the rich pay for guards that chase off any obvious rabble rousers. (and wouldn't it be fun if our more troublesome characters could be flagged as trouble makers and get banned from certain well to do markets or social scenes, making us sneak in an step back into shadows when guards took their rounds?)

However, I am actaully okay with a certain degree of leveling enemies (even monsters) if the lore can make sense of it all. For the immersion aspect mentioned I'm very interested in at least a few of ever basic enemy type being present in the world from the very first instant. There should be places off the beaten path that have dangers that I won't be able to conquer until after dozens of hours of play. After gaining enough levels, I should be able to toss the local guards to the curb with some effort, but I'm fine with the big cities have a 2nd class of elite guard captains get called for people who don't know when to stop; then perhaps every town sending in the mage and fighter's guild leaders at you in a combo attack if you don't stop your rampage - this is less level scaling and more towns applying increased resources to stop an attacker until he stops of the town is beaten.

But I'd also like a few unique characters that gain level like we are. Perhaps they are rival adventurers, and whenever we cross them they are within 2 levels of us because they are also our killing wolves, then bears, then giants. Or maybe there is a graveyard with a fairly weak lich in the bottom of some crypt. But he's praticing and growing his powers. Over time he becomes more and more powerful and his graveyard becomes more and more dangerous as well, and if we ignored him long enough his minions would be causing trouble acoss some regions of the countryside and he's have grown to be one of the most powerful enemies in the game. It would be matched to the amount of time that's passed in game instead of our level (b/c that makes much more sense), but that could work and lots of fun.

Also, since a war is on, generic troops could get better as the story progresses b/c they go from being green to veterans. Not all of course, but maybe over the course of the main quest the numbers go from 5 green troops for each elite trooper, to 1 green/crippled trooper to each 3 elite troopers.

They go with Morrowind's way...
It's funny to stumble across a Bonelord in a cave, than a Hunger... Thought, I love Hungers... And I think they will be Skyrim!

There will be more hand placed content, level scaling is done to a limited amount with min and max levels, and our character's level will more accurately represent our relative power. More than one thing is different. I am not entirely convinced the level scaling they're including is needed, but it's much different and better than Oblivion. We will not be able to beat the game at level 1.

Leveled loot sounds pretty lame, I can agree with this - though I haven't heard much about it and from your first argument I'm not entirely confident you know for sure it's in as you've misunderstood and/or misinterpreted their level scaling system there.

oh and, BTW, i think random missions are an amazing idea. not sure what they are but if i am going to have "excuses" to have fun in a type that is randomly generated than i will be thrilled.

I totally agree. I want level scaling too.

The whole point of having an open sandbox world is to have a lot of freedom to move around, isn't it? Generally speaking: If the game has fixed challenges, this means that large areas will be closed since they are too hard for low level characters, and later on it will be pointless to visit some places since they are too easy and unrewarding for high level characters. Scaled challenges and scaled loot means that we can play anywhere at any time, we are not forced to be in a predetermined place.

That being said, I also think that the player levels should mean something, if they don't have any effect they might as well be removed altogether. So there should be areas that are much too dangerous to visit until the player has gained a certain number of levels and acquired decent gear. "Unlocking" hard regions is satisfying and rewarding by itself, it shows progress being made.

It appears to me that most people who are mad about the level scaling isn't angry about challenging gameplay, they just don't want challenging gameplay from NPCs that should be pushovers when the character have become a powerful hero. Highwaymen for example are expected to be a danger for low level characters, but not to a powerful charcters that should eat bandits by the dozen for breakfast. So when they remained dangerous, that broke the illusion of having gained power. If the highwaymen had been replaced by demons at a certain level I don't think players would have been as upset about it, it wouldn't break the immersion either since the demons from Oblivion can be expected to push deeper and deeper into Tamriel as time went by and now threatened the countrysides. And since the demons themselves stayed the same and didn't grow bigger or looked any different, it felt strange that they remained just as hard. The problem was thus never challenging gameplay, it was the lack of a sensation of increased power.

edit: spelling

there will be level scaling, it has been in every ES game and the past 2 Fallout games, Morrowind they almost totally removed it and you were a god after level 20, Oblivion they did too much and you could never beat it, Fallout had a much better balance, and NV was even better

if you remove level scaling completely you might as well play a linear game, or type TGM in the console commands

You have a different complaint than most, I think. Vanilla was mildly difficult for the first 10% of the game, then a stroll through the park for the rest, IMHO. Scaling seemed to be part of the "appeal to the casual gamer" strategy, providing a personal Win butler, following you around, asking, "would you like more win with that sir?".
The whole appeal, and huge popularity of mods like OOO, was to make the game much more difficult, while also improving game balance and immersion.
Oblivion wouldn't have had any replayability for me if not for a slew of mods to make it harder. OTOH, challenge at higher levels should be from daedra, liches, etc, not from rats and bandits.

Adding my two cents in,

I hate the system mainly because of the pain in the ---- it is to gain a item you want... Example, if I want a masters mortar and pestle I have to load and reload before going into a dungeon literally 5,000 times before I can get it. The process makes you pull your hairs out and grow to hate the repetitive process. I would personally suggest that they try to switch back to a style where you would have to work your way to defiantly get items. Look to Morrowind for example, where you have the set items (and their level) in certain dungeons and shops that you KNOW will be there.

Respectfully disagree, completely. If you were godlike at level 20 in Morrowind, you were using an exploit. While you didn't have to be max level to beat the game, you did have to play for 100 hours. It was fun getting there, a sense of accomplishment.

Oblivion was unplayable. Nothing mattered, accomplishment was irrelevant. "Hey I leveled up! So what?" I never finished that awful game, and will never play it again.


RPG characters need to develop and evolve. One of my favorite parts of Morrowind was getting crushed early and coming back for revenge as a more powerful character. Oblivion was missing that completely. I get it, that aspect of the game is obviously not a big deal to the lovers of extreme level scaling. But for me the boredom of Oblivion style level scaling is a deal breaker. After seeing the trailer the other day, extreme level scaling looks like the only thing that could ruin Skyrim. I can't believe Bethesda would shoot themselves in the foot like that.

I complòetely agree. Oblivion was a farce.

One of the major aspect of an RPG is character development, from the beginning when you are a vermin a rat could kill easily, to the end when you really can compete with most powerful foes. Character development in OB was completely useless. Bah.

We need dangerous areas from the beginning, dangeuros dungeons from the beginning, only that way we will feel a sense of accomplishment. I cross my fingers for Skyrim.

i pray to god thats not what theyll do for skyrim. i dont want to know where every piece of equipment is, such predictability would ruin the game for me

Huge overstatement, at level 20 in morrowind, you are literally godlike, unless you've gimped yourself, heck If you build your character right, you won't have much problem in the beginning either. My hand to hand monk, is level 14, and is already showing signs, Anything trying to take me on is dead, it needs to be a group of three to even have a chance, and they all need to be deadra or deadric for it to get interesting. My Altmer Atronach killed his first daedric lord at lvl 5, and proceeded to find out that there's loot leveling in Morrowind. Morrowinds main quest doesn't even come close to requiring 100 hours.



Respectfully disagree, completely. Level scaling was overdone sure, but it's nowhere near as bad as making the game unplayable.