then don't read guides? or if you're the kind of person who will go for the best stuff from the start of the game just because you know where it is - don't.

like this is different from saying WELL DON'T USE FAST TRAVEL IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT because this is something that genuinely legitimately adds to the world and the feeling of adventure. i loved working through a hard dungeon in Morrowind and finding a unique sword. i loved working through a hard dungeon in Fallout and finding a unique gun. in Oblivion all you found were shirts in chests that have been locked for thousands of years, and it made the entire game a joke.

You knew where every piece of equipment was before you got there? You are good.

Oh looky, more Morrowind peoples bashing Oblivion. Didn't see that coming a mile away.

Anyway they're using what they did in Fallout, not much to worry about.

I love how people say immediately "DO AWAY WITH LEVEL SCALING 100%" when they're simultaneously praising games that have it. The problem is not level scaling but it's implementation. In Daggerfall and Morrowind, it was good. In Oblivion, it was awful. In Fallout and New Vegas, it was good.

Really though, we're getting the entire package with Skyrim.

We're getting Level Locked dungeons with Level Lists to reward advancement by going back to harder locations later when you're stronger.

Then we've got the static creatures in the open world scaled more like Fallout.

And, just to keep us engrossed when everything else is said and done, we've got Radiant Story quests where things are a bit more even with us to give us lingering challenge.

I love NV but tbh that game needed a form of level scalling.
As the only thing that actually can hurt you is cazzadores and deathclaws for up to 90% of the game.
A vanilla game is possible in your underwear, not using chems or VATs.

I love easy games, in fact I loooooveeee easy games.
I hate games that have the lowest difficulty setting only slightly easier than normal.
I looooooooovvvvvvveeee games with excellent and easy gameplay on easy.

However NV unmodded with no level scalling and better equiped npcs is far too easy, and this is me lover of easy saying this.

However Oblivions level scalling and health sponges was annoying and ridiculous.
I'm hoping for something in between the two.

Level scalling to 50 - 66% of the players level capped at roughly 18 - 20 for most generic / common foes.
Bosses, either one for one or capped at max level 30 for all but the top ones.

Numbers depending on the scaling I don't mind hordes, if however strong scalling I want only small skirmishes.

I've got to totally disagree with you here. I don't see the whole point of a sandbox game being "freedom to move around", perhaps if you had said, "freedom to attempt to move around", but in any case I think you are off in the idea that level 1 characters should be able to walk anywhere. I see the sandbox approach as a means to aid immersion, it says I can walk in any direction I choose. There are no walls, no mystical owls ushering me from one land to the next. And ES has always delivered that, but in each region of the map there should be the safer main roads and beginner quests; then more challenging places or quests that any player paying the least bit of attention will know are harder b/c of that the NPCs are telling you or b/c the landscape is covered in skeletons or all those other clues the designers put in to tell players danger is around.

So like I said, I see the open world approach mostly about immersion and player freedom. If a level 1 character decideds to blindly wander mystical dragon infested war torn nation, they yes they should have a significant chance of getting killed in a dozen different ways, but
Developers aren't stupid, even in sandbox games they limit the harder baddies be being in certain caves with lots of skeletons at the top, or past valleys with mid-level creatures in them what will make the lower level characters stop and turn back.

I hope they removed the level scale for the guards (PC+8).

Maybe you are just so awesome that you screamed through the game in 20 hours the first time you played it. I wasn't that good, it took me a while, and I enjoyed every second as I developed my character. I wanted to have fun, if my only goal was to finish as fast as possible, I can see that might be a problem.





I stand by my statement. Oblivion was unplayable, because boredom is a game killer. I will not waste my time working on making my character great, when it simply does not matter to the game, I got better and nothing changed. Pointless.

Boring = Unplayable
Oblivion was boring
Oblivion was unplayable

Seriously, I didn't complete it in 20 hours, but I sure as hell didn't use 100 hours on it, not even 50 hours, and I wasn't even trying to be fast. Not that less than 50 is fast for anything.



Hey, It's not important for me whether or not you waste any more time on Oblivion, but I didn't find it boring, and as I leveled up, things changed as lot for me, and I got better, so naturally I don't recognize your situation.

I see, so we were talk about vanilla, why did you bring up a mod? Sorry about you getting it on console, if the game means that much to you I would save for some upgrade on the pc.

I agree, I want combat to be fun through out my playtime and fell like I am getting more powerful and that my level means something, FO3 did that(with some mod tweaks, but the basic system was in place, unlike the massive overhaul I used for OB).



This^ I like scaled loot(not scaled unquies that I don't like) as it give you that feeling of progression as you play that I enjoy.


If you replay the game alot and there is no leveled loot, its not as fun.

Npc was level scaled in Oblvion, the only monsters who was level scaled was boss monsters
A levelled list will give you more chance for the high level enemies and treasure as you level up

That isn't true.

Easy to get the Vengeance at low level if you had some stealthboys. Reload until you find a direct route or print out the map. However you can hardly use Venegance at low level as ammo and repair would be hard to get and to expensive.

Lack of .44 ammo at low levels was that saved Lincolns repeater from being a gamebreaker. It was very easy to get.
Now Skyrim will not have lack of correct ammo type.

Did enemy armor and weapon quality improve? it felt like that for me at on level 2-3 raider armor and weapon was perhaps 5% quality, at level 20 it was more like 20%.
if true it was a smart way to modify enemy strenght.

True, everybody agree that Morrowind had a great challenge at low level, whoever the game become pretty easy at level 15, and at level 20 nothing could kill you.

Npc was far worse than monsters as most bandits had junk weapons. At level 15 you felt sorry then they run into your daeric sword waving iron daggers. This is why we got bandits in glass armor in Oblivion.

Also part of why Morrowind and Oblivion become easy is because you end up with absurd with health at high level, this makes you very hard to kill at high level. Oblivion responds with giving the enemy more health, had they done more damage it might help.
This is also true in fallout3. Keeping you endurance low helps making the game better.

Problem with this is that the item is a few selected places so you go to the easiest one.
Go to Ghostgate steal glass armor. now you have the best light armor in the game. Go to Dren plantation, bring a lot of healing potions, a summon golden saint scroll helps. Kill guy in hut on pillars, get daeric twohands sword. You now have the best sword in the game.
No it's not an exploit; reading a walkthrough will ruin the surplice and excitement it should not make the game a walkover. After playing one or two times you know where most items is, both Dren plantation and Ghostgate are quest locations.

im quoting myself here because i wonder how oblivion\FO veterans feel about this and my message got lost as the last message in its page:
I think im seeing things in almost the opposite way of how you look at it.

i know where a lot of you coming from but what is more important to me than the sense of "i grew powerful" is -

balance. balance in the worlds. balance in combat and it's challenge.


if there is no auto leveling than this means that in the beginning of the game i cant fight most of the enemies and i spent way too much time running away instead of having fun combat and leveling up through fun combat.
and later in the game i am so powerful that most of the world is filled with creatures i can beat in 2 hits and again - combat is not fun, no challenge. no tension. no reason to play better.

when the game dont do auto-leveling it means that in any given time only a small part of the world is fun and challenging. only the part that is MY level. the rest it either too easy or too hard to be fun and satisfying.

i enjoy a good combat where i need to fight good in order to win. in RPGs that dont have auto-leveling im only having fun if i follow the main quest and not much more. in Two worlds 2, which DOESNT have auto-leveling, i do a lot of side quests, i level up quicker than the devs intended and when i tackle a main story mission it is usually too easy and never satisfying. later in the game most of the game world is filled with un-satisfying combat.
in two worlds 2 i am about 60% through the game and now most of the game world not fun. the game becomes linear. the fun is always in the next quest and not in the rest of the world. why give me such a huge world if the fun is linear.
am i explaining myself well? i dont know....
look at Fable 3, for example - while i havent played it myself i read and heard from others that at some point u get so strong and so rich that buying stuffm improving, using potions or earning more money become unnecessary. than these game mechanics lose their purpose and no longer fun.

here is a sum of my POV about combat:
when a certain activity, like fighting, doesnt require emotional investment, like the tension u get when u try and defeat a powerful enemy, than this activity becomes a chore. a grind. if combat is always fun and always rewarding because u r always in a chance of conquering it, than there is always tension. always a reason to try your best. always being invested in it. in a game like Fable or assassins creed u level so high that combat is no longer interesting. it's just something u do in order to get what's BEYOND the combat. u r not having fun BECAUSE of the combat. combat becomes a means to an end instead of THE END itself. in a game like Skyrim combat happens so often that it must remain fun.

and about loot - i think its a lack of balance buying or looting a really powerful sword too early because from that point on there is no need to get better swords or weapons for a very long time. it makes the joy of finding loot redundant.

i also hate it when i find a sword that looks just like the one i already have but with a different grip and being told i cant wield it cuz my level is not high enough. a 5 year old can wield a sword. poorly but he can.


my solution to this? - i am not sure this is the best way to handle is since i never experienced a game that does this (didnt play FO or FO:NV but my idea is - auto leveling in numbers.
this means that when im level 3 i will encounter 5 enemies in level 1 in certain areas. if i level up to level 10 i will encounter groups of 7 enemies of level 1. i can still feel how i got stronger than these guys but i still have a challenge because there are more of them.
also spicing them up with an occasional higher level enemies here and there.

about loot - i think that higher level equipment that is too high for me should be possible by purchase or through quests that end in a chest. loot i find lying around or with enemies should be equivalent to mine or slightly lower or slightly higher. i think it's important to constantly find better stuff. not to jump 10 levels of equipment.

about high level equipment - maybe instead of finding weapons u cant use until u r in a higher level there can be equipment that requires, for example, level 20. if u r level 10 than u can still use that equipment but the damage u do with the equipment is lower as a result but the end potential of that equipment is higher than a level 10 equipment.
certain stuff make sense u couldt use like heavy weapons or armor or magical items. other items dont.

this is the way im looking at it. it's opposite of what most of you think but i think there is a large crowd that thinks like me.

i really dont want level scaling, while i will always favour TES over fallout i prefer the way fallout dealt with enemy levels.

Levelled loot wouldn't be such a problem if the following was realised in the mechanics:

A noob with the finest sword in Skyrim is little better than a noob with a rusty plank of metal.

yes but ill be stuck with that sword for a very long time, too long, maybe even until i beat the game . . . because it can potentially be one of the best swords in the game, just the thought of finding a weapon that strong that early in the game svcks donkey b****

I want scaling! Please! Nothings better than finishing the entire game at level 1 by just slashing away with whatever you can get your hands on! What immersion!

Outstanding!!!!!

A little perspective on complaints of finishing Morrowind in less than 100 hours. You want short? Try Oblivion. How about a character that will be as good as he will ever be, one minute into the game.


Morrowind: waaaaa less than 100 hours.
Oblivion: less then one second.

Level scaling = a pre-insertion orgism.

One word on the subject of lvl scaling: NEHRIM!

Seriously, I think level scaling completely kills all motivation to make a strong character. Can't get to the next area because you're too weak? Trying new methods and skills really bring out the charm and sense of satisfaction when bringing down a foe. Also, I liked how daedric armor was rare in Morrowind. I actually felt badass after I found my complete set.