Fair point, I was talking about the fact that generic enemy NPCs are still 'Raiders' with entirely random generated armor and loot.

Yes, yes it is. You want to know why leveling in Morrowind was relevant dispite the scaling? It is because that locations such as Daedric ruins and whatnot were not scaled down to your level, if they were then yes leveling would have been pointless. Yes Morrowind has some degree of level scaling but leveling is still relevant because they kept it away from the stuff that matters.

...which is probably not that far from what they will do in Skyrim, and everyone will be happy.

How about in Fallout 3 as soon as you leave the vault, walk north up to Old Olney.

You'll probably change your mind.

I certainly hope so. If Bethesda keeps level scaling away from the stuff the matters then I will be happy, however you will excuse me if I have my doubts.

Fallout 3's system was ok but then again you still can get broken equipment early in Fallout 3. The great equalizer was the guns as a Raider could kill you if you weren't careful. A regular Bandit in Oblivion wouldn't kill you unless you had the difficulty up high, bad equipment, or you screwed up with the leveling.

That type of system won't work as well in Skyrim. I think it can be done but I wouldn't completely abadoned Level Scaling. I'd still have the Dungeon Bosses Level Scaled with a minimum level that they start out with. I do agree that not every bandit should have Glass Armor, only specific Bandit Groups or Dungeon Bosses should have Glass Armor. The same goes for Maruarders. We'll have to wait and see what Bethesda does. I'll play under whatever system they choose because the game probably not going to be a complete cakewalk.

Yeah I really dont know what that is however if it was tough to beat as a level 1 character then odds are it wasnt scaled down to your level.

The most important for me is that there's no leveled loot.

The second most important is that bandits and random ordinary guys should always wear really low level items. Why rob me of 100 gold when you wear an armor worth 10 000? You're obviously richer than me.

These are both fixed with Fallout 3 levelling. In addition, the levelling of creatures is much more subtle.

well id like to say a few points on this subject, i agree with lvl scaling why it makes things keep up with you oviously the fact with armor ect isnt right everyone with glass ect.
what id like to see also is in certain areas guards certain guards ect are stronger and you cant fight not just on lvl because their strong untill u r, that way u got some people weak and strong and lvl scaling for rest of the usless people, as for boses thay should be high always.
in oblivion i found alot of people complain well if you lvled destruction up to 100 created ur own spells for it ul find no matter who u thought in glass armor u kicked arss, same with conjuration even tho id like to see more added to that part.
n if your read it propa thay said its more like fo than ob that doesnt mean it is from fo but thats what thay are saying it is more like, it probs is diffrent that fallout as well in some place.

i think thats what hes talking about that no matter how you look at it yeh strong people ect but the weak people never stay weak even if u can defeat them easily than before thays till take work, unless ur me in oblivion train conjuration up to 100 at lvl 1 dont sleep in bed bang get sum serious summon spells like clenfa n the big crocodile on 2 legs kicks everythings arss then i could just ruyn through the game with that n nothing could stop me. thats y thay do need 2 throw seriously high lvl people in there as well

The Fallout 3 system would suit me fine. I just don't want the Oblivion system back.

Fallout New Vegas's was better, (go north get killed by Swarm enemies either that or deathclaws) but I never noticed Fallout 3's trust me OP its 10x better than Oblivions.

They're some good things about Fallout 3's Scaling that I really like.

Some areas were sealed off early like Old Olney. I mean Deathclaws aren't something that you can kill at level 2 unless you paper cut them and they'll still find you and kill you in one hit.

You could find good equipment early instead of having to wait until level 10 in Oblivion to get something like Mithiri Armor.

Raiders were basically the same but they did upgrade their weapons when they leveled but they weren't like the Bandits in Oblivion.

Now My only problem with Fallout 3's Scaling is basically you could find really good broken equipment at low levels. That is something that I wouldn't want transfered into Skyrim. I think you should have to work for it instead of "Oh I'll sneak behind certain bandit and find the Lord's Mail or Goldbrand at level 2.

Then just make rock soild enemys?

Remember Divayth Fyr? He was no push over, even with some serious gear. Bandits should be cannon fodder, that's the whole point in leveling.

Morrowind "Level Scaling" was spot on. In my opinion, of course.

My big problem with Oblivion was the level-scaled unique items. This was gone in Fallout 3, correct?

I didn't even realize Fo 3 had level scaling, that's how good Fallout 3s was.

In Oblivion it became harder and harder the further I played. That's the difference.

Ofcourse there is more to it too, which has already been said.

As I haven't played any of the Fallout series, there's not too much for me to comment on there. But I will say that the leveling system in the vanilla Oblivion was lacking. There was no suspense in entering a dungeon, because you already knew the system would keep it pretty easy for you and that the loot wasn't all that great (at least until you got into higher levels). Mart's Monster Mod changed some of the faction relations (yay, hoardes!) and made the game a lot harder. My character actually died at reasonable intervals. There was enough variety and the creatures/baddies were powerful enough to keep you challenged at higher levels.

Now I'm not positive as to if MMM altered leveledlists, but the point is that yes, you do come across a bandit with powerful stuff and good loot. But only every now and then. The sheer variety makes the level scaling seem less visible. Or at least it does to me.

I agree that the lack of hand-placed challenges and rewards was one of the awfull parts of level-scaling in OB, but definatley not the worst. THE worst part was that what I call "the RPG effect" was reversed. "The RPG effect" is the notion that, as you progress through the game, if you happen upon the same place or challenge you faced much eralier in the game, it's much easier this time around, i.e. things get easier as you level up. In Oblivion, things only get harder as you level up. One can say with 100% probability that if you enter the same dungeon twice, once at level 2 and another at level 12, the second time will be a f!$?#* times harder because all the minions were replaced with bosses that take 10 times longer to bring down. And this applies for all dungeons and locations... After level 20, you encounter only the toughest opponents EVERYWHERE and any endeavour becomes a frustrating, arduous grind.

Just the fact that the new level-scaling is potentially location-based is a much welcome change.

Read this post over and over again Bethesda until it sinks in. It's critical "The RPG effect" returns for Skyrim. Level-scaling becoming location-based would be a big step towards that. Even the NPC's warned you in Morrowind not to go to the Sheogorad region early in the game, and for good reason, you were quite likely to have your ass handed to you. That's the sort of thing some players want, that immersion is the thrill they seek, so please think of them.

Level scaling is the only reason I would NOT buy Skyrim. I will have to wait and know for a fact that level scaling is not a problem before a drop a penny.

I will buy a new computer, I will spend whatever I have to spend, not a problem. The other issues, graphics, story, voice acting, etc... not a problem. On these issues I have total faith in the devs.


I loved Morrowind, and Oblivion was a huge disappointment. I have never played the other games you guys are using to compare different methods of level scaling. All I know are the two very different methods used in Morrowind and Oblivion. One was great, one svcked.

The thrill of getting in over my head early in the game and then coming back for revenge is absolutely necessary. When I have conformation that Skyrim will destroy a lower level player that wandered into the wrong cave or dungeon, I'm all in.

I'd prefer they used the Fallout: New Vegas system (it is similiar, but the nonleveled zones are handled much better - placement and content), and also finetune the levelscaling for areas which do level with the player in a manner which doesn't take the sense of progression away, but still offer challenge.

Correct, no levelled quest rewards.

MW DID have levelled lists, even in Daedric ruins. At low level, you'd see moslty Scamps and Clanfears, with RARE appearances by tougher spawns. They were regional, though, so you still found tougher things there than in the rest of the wilds, or in settled areas.

I think the devs are wantin to keep that 'go wherever u want type game' and doing so FO3 lvl scaling did it well enough that u could go most places without too much trouble, where as oblivions u could go wherever but u could get urself in a whole (poor lvling) and eventually couldnt do anythin outside of towns. that happened to my first archer character since i went strictly thief build.

I think they did a great job but I was frustrated by not being able to go to some areas of the map at all until I leveled. It wasn't just certain dungeons or buildings I could not go but open areas. I felt railroaded down a linear path prescribed by the devs and really did not like that. There were many who complained about that same issue.

As long as there is only hand placed high level armor and weapons and loot, I'm ok with how they decide to do it. For me FO:3 was about the right amount of scaling for a TES game. Maybe even a bit more to allow us to re-enter places and have new challenges later in the game. I also really did like how some of the barrels and such in MW had loot that would respawned higher level loot as you leveled up. And loved how in MW at a low level you would clear out a dungeon full of skeletons and later go back to the same place and some higher level creature had moved in (respawned). It bothers me when I clean out a tomb or dungeon and it stays forever empty. I mean, if it was a good home for one creature (or bandit) wouldn't another figure it was vacant and move on in? Kept things interesting to me.

Here's one from me: Around levels 5-7, critters in the West Gash became blighted. This added a lot of randomness to fighting (on low levels, one couldn't dream of having enough cure-blight potions at hand, let alone cure-blight spells, and fighting a blighted nixhound with endurance 60 minus 40 could be quite an adventure...), which most players probably solved for themselves by using Reload whenever they got the blight.
Oh, and daedra temples became a lot more dangerous with fire atronachs.
And there was some minor immersion problem when the Grazelands got swamped with Golden Saints. The NPCs there, however, remained stuck at their levels (including level 5 ashlanders). At that point I was really glad that NPC's didn't get into fights with creatures. However, in Skyrim this is probably going to be the case...

As for the bosses not being strong enough... Well, it has nothing to do with levelscaling. It has to do with the ability of the player to swallow 50 exclusive health potions at once, and with (most of) the people complaining about easy bosses having collected the best artefacts through all of the Morrowind. Some parts of gameplay indeed could have been balanced out better. This doesn't require levelscaling.

Thing is: If GStaff had said that Skyrim's levelscaling is like that in Morrowind, I'd be rather okay with that. But FO3 is a different story. I don't want to repeat what I wrote http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1156332-is-level-scaling-backnoooooooooooo/page__view__findpost__p__16937933, but FO3 with Broken Still does suffer from the Oblivion syndrome: a level 30 character usually has a tougher life than a level 22 character. In vanilla FO3 this might be better, but I'm not sure (the level cap of 20 svcks, because it makes it too easy to mis-skill).



I think you got something wrong about daedric ruins here ;=