Ok first off the level scaling in Oblivion was horrible and as much as I hoped it would not return in Skyrim it seems that it will show its ugly face once again, I do not want it at all and anytime anyone brings it up you can be sure to see someone reply with something along the lines of "Have no fear guys, Skyrim's level scaling will be more like Fallout 3 and not Oblivion" as if that is supposed to put our fears to rest, how was the level scaling in Fallout 3 better? Ok sure you wont see common raiders running around in power armour but that still does not change the fact that every encounter, every dungeon and the loot you find within will be scaled down to your level, sure you wont enter a dungeon at level 20 and find a bandit rushing at you with a glass sword but instead he will be replaced by a skeleton or something with a glass sword. Level scaling makes leveling pointless, if you are going to scale everything down to the player's level you might as well just cut the whole leveling system altogether, just get the player to pick his starting stats and proficiencies and keep it at that.

I can see why some people may want a level scaling system in regards to the outside world however it still makes no sense that once you reach a certain level ogres start infesting the main roads (however it is quite funny when they complete your Dark Brotherhood contract for you) nor does it make sense that a level 1 character can enter the deepest, darkest and most dangerous corners of the world and find nothing but mildly agressive bunnies.

Hmm I seem to have gone off track here, oh well my question was how is the level scaling in Fallout 3 better than Oblivion's?

You don't see bandits in power armor. You said it yourself.

I think that was one of the main problems with Oblivion's scaling, at least it was my main problem with it.

And I want them to take a cue from New Vegas where the main roads are actually quite safe, with only the occasional bandit or two.

actually in FO3 you could still find power armor and uber special weapons even if you level 1, and a death claw could still own you HARD if your too low level, and a rocket will turn you to lamp chops if your too low level.

that's why FO3 level-scaling is better, because you can still be surprised/killed/rewarded/challenged.

in OB it was totally [censored]!! everything was static, NPC's were HP sponges and it was all around [censored] I don't even want to remember how horrible that was.

so yes FO3 level scaling was better, and I'm sure Skyrim's system will be even MORE refined.

Keep in mind that Morrowind had leveled scaling as well which I never heard a tiny peep of complaint about except end bosses not being strong enough. Which is why it was redone in Oblivion which then everyone despised. Fallout:3's scaling was not really noticeable so :shrug: it's fine as far as I am concerned.

In a sense you are right, in a sense your fears are a tad unfounded. I agree that there should be loot that is rare and powerful and has a cave specifically for it but level scaling has been around in some regard since classic NES like Zelda and Final Fantasy. The only difference is enemies are scaled based on location because you shouldn't be in that location at a low level. What was nice about Fallout 3's system was exactly what you said. You will occasionally come across an Enclave Soldier that will decimate you at a low level, and at a high level you will occasionally run into a Raider that you can beat to death with your fists. This time it is entirely different from either of those games and we have to wait and see how it turns out.

What they really need to do is allow people to play the beta game so the actual fans can say "Feature X is good. Weapon Y is overpowered." That way they can get an idea of what it is like aside from the 150 people who like it because they spent the last couple years pouring their heart and soul into it.

First off, the Fallout 3 level-scaling is much improved over Oblivion. There definitely won't be bandits in glass/ebony armor first of all. Also Fallout 3's level scaling is determined by location. Your level may tweak the difficulty of that area slightly, but they are already pre-determined. For example there were some areas in Fallout 3 where you would run into exlcusively death claws. They wouldn't just appear anywhere because of your level, but at the same time they don't get stronger, and if you are just weak they will tear you to shreds. I'm expecting dragons to be the death claws of Skyrim, except possibly more difficult. As far as loot is concerned, I think it will work differently from Fallout 3 and Oblivion. You don't use armor to repair armor in TES, so I'm sure there will be another method they consider (going back to the level scaling by location). What made Morrowind really special is that BGS hand placed a lot of the rare loot in the game for people to explore and find. It's not difficult to do, and I don't see any reason why BGS wouldn't do it considering how much the community loved it in Morrowind. There is no point in dungeon crawling and exploration in general if there is nothing to be found or seen.

Thats it? Other than bandits running around in expensive equipment the level scaling is exactly the same as Oblivion? Oh yeah thats MUCH better, that totally fixes the problem with level scaling. Bandits using expensive equipment was only part of the problem, seriously Bethesda do us all a favor and just cut out leveling in the next Elder Scrolls game altogether as level scaling makes the system totally redundant.

Edit: disregard this post as it was posted before I could read the other posts.

I know in Fallout 3 I could pretty much destroy anything that came in my path at like level 25, which isn't unreasonable. In Oblivion it was harder to get to that point, but I still got there none-the-less. Additionally, loot doesn't scale in FO3, whereas it did in OB. It's my understanding that this is a change they've carried over from FO3. Which is nice, because in FO3 if you played your cards right you could have the best weapon in the game within hours.

I don't think it's pointless, I like the balance they struck in FO3. And it's safe to say this will only get improved with Skyrim. Have faith in BGS.

Not to mention you could find high quality loot in certain places no matter what your level. There were also certain places where you could encounter high level enemies even at low levels.

Also, Morrowind used level scaling too, it just wasn't as extreme as Oblivion's case, now if you still think level scaling makes leveling "pointless", go play Morrowind, create a new character, and don't train your skills, just get off the boat, go by some equipment in Seyda-Neen, then go and find a random Daedric ruin and try to explore it, then ask yourself once more, does level scaling make leveling pointless? Really, the reason behind Oblivion's level scaling is probably in a large part precisely because in Morrowind, at high levels, enemies became too easy, since you eventually out leveled them, at this point, though, it would be foolish to assume that Bethesda hasn't realized that the solution they chose to this problem was not such a good choice.

Fallout had perfect scaling, I never felt like the enemies were too tough or too easy, except deathclaws which always dented my stimpack supply.

I never even had a problem with Oblivions levelling system because I just upped the various ways I would dispatch any enemy. I used everything... poisons, spells
and melee, or maybe just poisons and melee. Or maybe just spells. I did what I wanted when I wanted a change. It could be challenging at times but I never got slaughtered
unless I was stupid about how i play.

The leveling system is based around fallouts. Remember they're modiying the skill system and the level system so the scaling system will have to be different as well.

I'm intrigued with what I've heard and I cant wait to see it

Your entire OP was unfounded though.

You said instead of a bandit with a glass sword there would be a skeleton with a glass sword, that's not the case.

In fallout, if Raiders were supposed to be there, then raiders were there, no matter what level you are. If you're low level they are probably using pistols and knives, if you're high level they are a little tougher and probably using submachine guns, hunting rifles, and maybe a ripper. But they are still wearing the same crappy armor, and they haven't replaced raiders with enclave troops or deathclaws in the raider bases just because you've leveled up.

You do realize that pretty much every TES game had level scaling?

Hmm I am not so convinced as the weapon armour system in Fallout 3 is pretty different to what is in Oblivion.

The weapon armour system in Oblivion is based on tiers where Fallout 3 was not, for instance a long sword goes up in tiers from iron to daedric where as a there is only one type of lazer rifle (unless you count unique versions such as the wazer wifle).

I have answered your question in bold. It is better because Fallout 3's system is very close to how it was in Morrowind. And Morrowind got it almost right.

Way to not pay attention to the other posts. Anyways...

The level scaling in Fallout 3 is pretty good compared to the travesty of Oblivion's. From the start of the game, there are indeed places you can go where you will be utterly and hopelessly slaughtered if you dare set foot in that area (such as Old Olney). As mentioned, Raiders and other common human enemies wouldn't simply spawn with powerful weapons and armor just to match you That and, while the creatures all had varying degrees of dificulty attached to them, they never actually leveled up with you like in oblivion. By the time you hit the high levels you could take care of just about any problem unless you had utterly gimped your character.

From what it sounds like, the level scaling isn't exactly level scaling anyways. They were calling it "Radiant Story" which custom tailors various sidequests for you by directing you to unexplored dungeons and making the enemies a challenge for the specific type of character you happen to play.

Exactly. People hear the words level scaling and go into some kind of frenzy, but in reality... it's been in every ES game. Not having level scaling would mean that the game is on par with Two Worlds. One.

Morrowind and Fallout 3 were good on the level scaling because their scaling made sense. Some areas were heavily scaled, some lightly and some not at all. I would wager that, in Skyrim, the levels of boss characters will be higher if you are, but cap after a certain point up and down. Much like Fallout 3. So you can't beat the game at level one, but you don't need to get all the way to level 50 if you don't want to.

Really my only issue was "bandits in glass" and the changing of the power of legendary weapons based on level. Have legendary weapons be static and achievable, with lots of work and preparation, at any level, such as my level-3 Goldbrand in Morrowind.

Even Daggerfall had level scaling, the monsters you encountered changed to more high-powered ones as you leveled up. Some sort of level scaling has been in every TES-game, and it can actually work very well. Just get rid of item-scaling, and rework the levelled spawns so monster encounters aren't COMPLETELY dependant on level. I'm quite sure the level scaling in Skyrim will be just fine.

If they insist on having level-scaling then FO:3 level-scaling is vastly better than Oblivion's. There were definitely places that had tougher enemies even at lower levels that gave a better sense of adventure and danger. I just hope there is some higher level loot available even at lower levels if you know where to look for it, or stumble upon it by exploration. I don't like there being no in the entire world, simply because my character happens to be low level. That is just totally immersion shattering.

For me personally, my bigger issue with both Oblivion and Fallout style scaling is the lack of hand-placed loot, or thought put into dungeon inhabitants etc. In Morrowind, crates and creatures were all boringly level scaled in the F3 manner, but most important loot and all NPCs were handplaced by the devs for each dungeon. You didn't just go up against 'a bandit' with level appropriate gear, you went up against a character with a name and with loot and gear selected for him by the devs. Wheras in Oblivion (almost entirely) and Fallout slightly less so, the designers gave up most of their work to the levelled lists - so instead of feeling like I had found something cool and rare, I just felt like I had rolled lucky dice, but that ultimately I could have found my reward in any other given dungeon.

Uhhhh, in Fallout 3 all the unique armor, clothing and weapons were put in very specific places that were only in that one specific spot. So I'd say that instead of "Fallout slightly less so" it's more like not at all.

Maybe the skill system is more indicative as to how well a sword performs, and the tier of sword is more of an enchanting difference, as well as how fast the weapon or armour degrades.

Fallout's a step towards Morrowinds, but it was still annoying while playing it. New Vegas was fun. Morrowind was fun. A few subtle tweaks (like bosses being a bit more scaled to provide challenges for high level characters) would result in perfection. I hope they've evolved the FO system for Skyrim and not just done a copy paste job. I know Bethesda work hard, and I'm sure it'll work wonderfully well. Level scaling is just the biggest issue I've had with recent Bethesda games and is what's causing most of my scepticism.

In Morrowind, the levelled lists ADDED new possibilities as your level increased, and there was always a chance of spawning the original creatures or loot. The game also had some static placed opponents and loot which were at various levels, and which made exploration both exciting and rewarding for the first playthrough or two, because you didn't KNOW whether or not you'd run into something that could slice and dice you into tender bite-sized morsels without breaking a sweat, or if there was something of great value there or not. The problem showed up at high levels when you ran low on challenging high-level encounters, or on subsequent play-throughs where you as a player already knew exactly where all the "goodies" were hidden.

In OB there was little excitment or point in exploring, because you KNEW there was nothing any more frightening than you'd bump into anywhere else, and nothing worth venturing any farther than the nearest cave for, because it was all the same, in effect: boringly levelled and scaled to your character for a "guaranteed" level of mediocre challenge. Creatures which used to appear at low levels were sometimes REPLACED by stronger creatures, or stronger versions of the same basic creature. Items didn't exist in the world before your character reached certain levels, and then suddenly everyone had them, and the "old stuff" was suddenly rare except in stores. Ultimately, your character remained "on par" with everything else, unless you "min/maxed" the character or did other tricks to get ahead of or behind the "levelling curve".

FO3 toned down the OB levelling and scaling thing slightly, and added a few static items and creatures to make exploration not totally pointless. Most locations, though, were still levelled and/or scaled to you, and the loot was mostly the same as elsewhere. I recall wandering into the scary DC "downtown" at low level, and being unimpressed with the place in terms of threat, because it was all watered down for my feeble character. A FEW basic starting creatures could still be found at higher levels, but the vast majority had become rare or extinct, replaced by nastier versions or entirely new creatures, like "Albino Giant Radscorpions", "Glowing Ones" feral ghouls, Deathclaws, or powerful military robots. By making it so an INDOOR location's level "locked" when you entered it, you could go back and finish it later at the original level of difficulty. That only worked if you visited at low level, then returned at a higher one, and it also meant that the loot was stuck at the original level. The fact that enemy spawns levelled, but NPCs didn't, meant that wandering past a settlement during the later stages of the game was often a death sentence to the inhabitants, as monstrous creatures far beyond their capacity to deal with would rampage through the town, while you strolled by in the distance, oblivious to the carnage. Overall, it was a "band aid fix" on the problems, not a better system. Improved, but still not "right".

Ok im all for the new leveling system however i can see where some might get very worried. The thing is alot of people did not notice the level scale in fallout but that's what made it work. There is another aspect we are forgetting its not only the game getting harder because of our level its also based on the actions in the main storyline. Ex/ In FO3 I just got the Scientists from the Project to the BOS base. then i said screw you guys im getting out of here with my new power armor. and guess what? there are Enclave everywhere. The point in the main story demands that there are. I came across an outpost right outside Megaton. Its hard fighting those guys cus I'm not even level 15 yet.

I think if your not careful in skyrim and get to far ahead of yourself your going to be severely outclassed. But in OB i could do the WHOLE main quest at level 1-3 (without class exploits) So any improvement on OB system is a major improvement