I honestly do not know if people just don't care for things to make sense anymore, or if it's just "politically incorrect" to talk about it now. I am very glad to finally see I'm not the only one.

The thing I honestly do not understand.. and still don't understand.. is how someone can literally see a statistic on their character record saying their weapon skill is bad for the moment, yet still be surpised and keep failing at a task that should obviously be a failure before they finally sit down and go, "Oh, my skill is bad." -- as if it were some big secret that was being kept from them. It's like.. have we humans really fallen that far as a species?

In truth, I wonder if some of the gaming public has forgotten that the fun is in the building up process and making the journey, not in crossing the finish line. Perhaps Richard Garriott was right all along about how social thinking tends to run in circles. I used to think he was all wrong and it was why his company failed in the long run. Maybe he was right.



I glad to hear someone else say it. We don't have to have the final fantasy "easy zone, hard zone" thing to have areas that are still dangerous because common sense says "that is a dangerous place".

In Daggerfall, you'd hear that sound you dread and go.. "Oh, crap. There's a lich down here somewhere."

In Morrowind you'd look at those fugly daedric ruins and think "I bet there's something nasty in that place."

In Oblivion, I cakewalk through daedric areas, then promptly get whomped on when I go into a cave full of goblins. It's still the same "easy here, danger there" dance, but without the sensibility we once had.

Personally, yeah, I'd like a lot of a game's areas to be scaled to a degree. I too would like to find that comfort zone. In the end, it's still a game and just a form of entertainment after all.

I just don't want every area to be like that, though. The game world itself should only remain replete with the standard wildlife. The challenge needs to remain in the ruins in the distance, not in the average fox on the road. Just whatever is appropriate for the setting. Morrowind had it's nix hounds. Oblivion has wolves and bears. It's good. If it were possible to keep the roads clear of the "toss an enemy at the player every so often" programming, that might be good too. Stay on the roads for a clear journey. Go off roading for something a little more. Easy. Simple. Sensible. If someone whines that they haven't seen an octorok yet when walking the road to the next town.. ignore them. Please.

Put some areas in the world that have a minimum level statistic. Meaning that, yes, enemies are tougher than average there. Make it obvious that it's supposed to be a nasty place. In other words, make it look and feel sensible. During my first few runs of the game, I'll be working on my character while thinking of that place with greedy anticipation. When I replay the game, I might try that area sooner wtih some of the tricks I learned, you see? Just because I replayed the game several times and learned these tricks, it doesn't mean the game is suddenly too easy. I like the fact that I made a game easier by learning it's tricks. Makes me feel smart lol. It just means I've played it a lot. I mean.. it's not rocket science. I don't want it to be the exact same level of challenge everywhere I go. I really don't think I'm the only one here. I think I'm one of the few who will simply admit it, though.

Don't let the whiners ruin the fact that I like a challenge every now and then once I learn the tricks of the game. But, if we only cater to the few who whine that "my magic sword isn't shooting" because a dude ran into the place and tried to take it on with a 5 / 100 weapon skill, then.. well. :shrug: It's almost like saying the rest of us don't matter. Yeah, I know.. he's a customer, too. But, so am I.

I have an idea for a better way to level scale okay here it is:When you are level 1 all the creatures are tougher then you then when you are level 3 you are a match and you are just as good as the animals(no better until level 5)then you keep getting stronger then them until you are at level 10,at level 10 the animals level up to level 6 when you are level 14 the animals level up to level 9 and then when you are level 18 level up to level 10 so basicly this idea means you level like morrowind but when you are getting too strong compared to the animals they go up a few levels but are still below you and you are still getting better then them but at a slower speed.

I don't want scaling at all, but if there is a small amount of it I won't make a fuss. Unless of course we are talking about loot scaling. That to me is just stupid and ruins any reason to go into a dungeon.

This is EXACTLY what I don't want to happen. There is no rational reason why all of the basic animals in the world should suddenly get stronger, just because my character gets better at fighting them. Adding in a FEW extra creatures that are tougher as your character improves gives you a challenge, but doesn't instantly turn the world into something different. Those tougher creatures should be more common (and appear from the start of the game) in some of the remote areas, but should rarely (if ever) appear right around towns.

The rate at which the character improves was too high in OB. I don't mean that it took too long between levels, I mean that the improvement was too much each time, so that after 20 levels, you were so far above where you started that none of the basic creatures were even worth noticing: "Hmmm, that rat's been attacking my ankle for the last 20 minutes, and I'm down a couple of hitpoints; maybe I should do something about it...." Having your L10-15 character only twice as strong as at L1 would be more reasonable, and might require a lot less work to keep the game interesting and challenging at high levels.

I think Fallout 3 got it just about right.

Well, unless your character and his companions managed to clear an area off the "low-level" animals, and population pressure forces some of the stronger members or packs of them to migrate into the now empty ecological niche around that town.

Have a dynamic world, don't just fake it with random spawns.

I like the "hot- or cold-mode" idea. You can make it so untrained skills go cold and start to deteriorate. Except when you begin to use them again, they rise to the previous level MUCH faster than skills that you just have never used. Kind of like riding a bike, stopping for ten years, then having another go

I think enemies shouldn't scale with your level however, loot should scale to our level because if it didn't it'd get annoying getting a crap ton of worthless loot at high levels and would overpower your character at lower levels.

No level scaling. Some places are way beyond my abilities early on, giving me something to work toward. Static, interesting loot and no more chests containing spoons and cups and tongs. I like the excitement of walking into a cave and realizing it's full of atronachs and I'm level 3. And then coming back later and cleaning up.

I would have to disagree with scaled loot. I personally believe that static loot is a much more rewarding way of doing things than scaled loot.

Armor and weapons should have advantages and disadvantages rather than "at level 15 you can now hunt down ebony armor which has a higher armor rating than all other armor you have seen previously." First off, ALL armor types should be present in the game world from the start, in places that make sense, like daedric armor on daedra warriors and leather armor on thieves. Using daedric armor should not just increase the weight of your armor, but should also make spellcasting less effective and you sneak ability diminish, whereas leather armor should have a low armor rating but does not hinder your ability to sneak or pick locks. Same idea for weapons.

This is not to say that there shouldn't be some more powerful weapons and armor in the game that are enchanted. Just the opposite, there should be plenty, and they should be challenging to obtain. They could still fall under certain armor and weapon types, like leather armor or longswords, and have the same advantages/disadvantages, but there is an enchantment that increases a skill or has some other effect. You say that you are a custom class that's got a lot of very different skills? Choose your armor and weapon (and jewelry and stuff) wisely. They could also introduce socketed items, like in WoW, where you could further customize your equipment and make it more powerful using gems and such you find in-game. The more space for customization, the better.

I would also like to see tomes and books where new, more powerful spells can be learned, sort of like Diablo. These could be challenging to get, and very useful once you have them.

No.

Because if you're a low level you'd die trying to get the high-powered loot.

And if you try to get low-powered loot at a high level, then you're wasting your time if you plan to use it.

So, what you predict will not actually happen.

No level scaling what so ever, design the next es game so you can progress.

I assume you mean to say 'level' and not 'scale'. At any rate, I'm going to have to agree with kenchi kercho and hamsmagoo (that's quite a rhyme!). I would hate such a system.

I was actually pretty fine with the waay Oblivion handled enemy leveling and scaling, but I hated the way the game leveled loot. I would have preferred Morrowind's approach: leveled loot with much non-leveled, hand-placed loot scattered all over the place. In Morrowind I could travel to Ghostgate and feast my eyes on a set of glass armor at level 1...if I made it there. It gave me something to look forward to, seeing that armor. And as hamsmagoo says, there was no possiblity of unbalancing the game in putting that armor there because I couldn't possibly take it from that NPC at level 1. Hand-placed loot in dungeons made exploring fun.

By contrast, in Oblivion everything was tied to my level. There was no possibility to see or touch a single piece of glass armor anywhere until I reached level 20. None. Glass armor didn't exist. That felt stultifying to me. Not only did it do much to dampen my enjoyment in exploring the game world it was implausible.

So no, I do not want loot to exclusively level with me.

Couldn't agree with you more (even though I do think that roads should present the occasional bandit/animal challenge now and then).

The key to a good system is static levels along with varied area-specific statistics. Several things can be adjusted on each area: spawn frequency, creature level (obviously), creature type, default creature hostility etc etc.




as much as I would like a fully dynamic living wildlife like that, I think that at the present state, it's too much trouble for small returns. A dynamic, living NPC economy would add much more fun (emerging gameplay) but it is also very complex and difficult to fine tune.

Also no loot scaling either. I think the best solution for items in general is to random-drop them on containers at each new game, according again to area statistics and container features (if it is locked/trapped it holds better items). Unique items are of course hand placed. Items found on enemies follow their carrier's stats (more or less) with rare variations. Containers are hand placed. All this applies to the random bandits/animals/enemies. Named NPCs have predefined levels (same at each new game) and their items are dynamically defined by their AI routines.

This is exactly why I posted this thread in the first place. Someone on the sugestions thread said that scaling loot removed any reason for exploring dungeons.

If loot scales to the player then they no that there is no point to go crawling down a dungeon, when they will only find something that will be in every chest in a few levels. Theres no big loot, or unique loot to be found. Its the same for thiefs, I see a well guarded house and think to myself when im ready i'll take everything in there. But if the loot scales then I will see the house and think, theres no point i'll wait a few levels and get whatevers in there in the chest in the poorpers house.

No level scaling obviously. You can't go into the woods and expect to find all kittens and bunnies. A bear is going to come by and rip your face off eventually. Yet when I take 4 years of bear wrestling school, the forest is suddenly full of bears?

Not only does this remove realism, this also destroys immersion.

I actually enjoy a leveling system, but I prefer the one Morrowind had to Oblivion's stock creature list. There was no variety to Oblivion at all, you level up from all wolves, to all boars, to all bears. I'd prefer a leveling system with a variety of similar creatures in a slim level range (like the kwama creatures and diseased counterparts) and Morrowind's -1/+0/+2 style of leveled creatures. Also certain dungeons shouldn't be leveled at all. In Morrowind the dungeons with the artifacts in them had high level protection along with some varied leveled creatures. In Oblivion you enter one dungeon filled with Necromancers and then you enter another dungeon five minutes later with the exact same Necromancers and loot. I am not against a leveling system, I feel it allows you to get a sense of exploration at earlier levels instead of things like this region is sealed off for people under level 15 and once your over level 5 this area is now pointless. I just think that certain places need to feel much more challenging then others. In Morrowind I often had my character avoid Daedric ruins until I was at a higher level, but in Oblivion I could enter any cave or dungeon and finish the main quest at only level 2.

I guess what I am trying to say is keep the wilderness regions with a variety of region specific leveled creatures instead of 7 different types of vicious animals and two types of deer, and make dungeons partly leveled with an assortment of static level NPCs and boss creatures to keep all dungeons from being the territory of a level 1.

It's much easier to roleplay without level scaling.

If your character is a knight who constantly fights monsters and animals, it doesn't make sense that they never get any better really because all of the monsters change to be harder. (you never run into a Troll before level 5 for some reason, even though people talk about them constantly). Compared to a civilian character you're playing who walks around town and works in an inn.

I think the next game would be off a lot better if there wasn't level scaling, or if there was it was a small amount like Fallout 3. The only things that should really be scaled with your level are the amount of experience you get for training a skill (less when you get higher up, so the game feels more rewarding the farther you progress).

I don't want any level scaling. At all. FO3 did it better than Oblivion, but I still think that none at all would be best.

I want no level scaling. I like it when there's things you can't beat till you get to a higher level. One thing I didn't like on Oblivion (no, I'm not starting a Morrowind vs Oblivion rant), was the fact that if you did a quest at a low level, the weapon you got was only good at a low level. I think that if the reward you get is a low level weapon, you should face low level creatures. But, there should be quests that are almost impossible for low levels where you face high leveled creatures, and receive better rewards. All the quests should be available to a player of any level though, unless you need a certain amount of fame or need to progress in a guild, etc.

[rant starting in three... two...]

I couldn't agree more. One of the things that drove me off of Oblivion was the leveling system. I had a Nord with the alchemy talent. I made a lot of potions because I did a lot of hand to hand. Suddenly I'm level 20 and I can't go anywhere without getting killed, nevermind the main roads. There is nothing more hilarious than a guardsman saying "You better stick to the roads" only to be mauled by a minotaur ten minutes later less than twenty seconds outside of Leyawiin. I can understand the roads not being safe to an extent like the occasional fox or wolf, but how in the world do people travel city to city with minotaurs and wisps right there on the road!?

I personally liked Fallout's system of scaling. There were some areas you simply should avoid, namely the train stations under DC and that one town full of Deathclaws. It also made sense in Morrowind: some smugglers are simply better than others. I just didn't understand why no one would try to repopulate them after a period of time, or why no one looked for them (smugglers are smugglers! Maybe have them at random levels so you never quite know what to expect?).

But they should have a noticeable beginner zone. For example, I have a level 1 bard in Morrowind and I just cleared out the little smuggler cove behind Seyda Neen. Maybe I'm level 2 by now, or level 3. Now where can I go to get some loot or leveling? For some reason, it seems like hit or miss concerning whether or not you can take on a certain dungeon. Addamasartus, the smuggler cave past the Stilt Rider in Seyda Neen, is low-level. ( http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Addamasartus ).

But go to the east near the shores of Pelagiad (which has few quests and is really a town to buy and sell rather than quest) and you may run into Mannammu ( http://www.uesp.net/maps/mwmap/mwmap.shtml ) expecting lower-leveled enemies as well... only to get your face smashed in by people closer to level 10 than 5 (there isn't anyone in there that isn't under level 7, and the highest is level 13) ( http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Mannammu ). Note just how close that cave is to Pelagiad. You would figure that the farther into the wilderness, the higher the loot and the higher the danger. But it doesn't necessarily hold true. After all, how can you tell if one cave is an Addamastrus or a Mannammu?

I don't mind saving and reloading that much, but I hate looking for lower-level dungeons. I just want dungeon leveling to make some kind of sense!!!

[/end rant]

I actually like that about Morrowind. It keeps you on your toes when you don't know for certain whether or not you'll get in over your head.

i LOVED level scaling it keeps the game challenging and you find items that arent useless everywhere.
u think it should be half and half though so you actually feel like your getting stronger.
But a gameplay thing would be that all enemies,npcs, companions, would regenerate hp.
And probably the player would regenerate Hp but only 25% of their max. this would be at least 10 seconds after any fight.

Talk about going out on a limb... I think this is the first time I've read someone who will openly admit this. I have to respectfully disagree, though. I feel that level-scaling rather defeated the sense of progression that is one of the main appeals of the RPG genre. It also made it so that weapons/armor/loot essentially became useless after a point. Personally, I think there are better ways of going about making the game seem challenging than giving enemy NPCs/creatures more hitpoints per level and better armor. I think next time around Beth should make character progression less dramatic between levels, so that one's character s l o w l y gets stronger/better, but still ends up being god-like towards the end. Matter of fact, I'd like it if Beth did away with level caps altogether, and instead made it so that skills that aren't used frequently enough would diminish slowly over time. That, and give NPCs better AI so that they will use any and all spells and/or potions they have in their arsenal.

Its one of the rules of the 'Game design rule book 101: Open World', "Let the player know if this area is for them, or if an enemy will flatten them if they enter". Putting high level dungeons near a town is fine, so long as its signposted, so to speak. They could do this by hanging skulls outside every high level dungeon, so when the player sees skulls they no that the dungeon isnt for them until they are higher levels. Or inside the entrance they can place scary looking things to scare them off. If the devs do that then its totally the players fault if they run into a dungeon thats too high a level for them.

This is one of Morrowind faults, they dont tell the player what sort of level range they are meant to be to take on each dungeon. Well ok, some do, but a lot of the tombs look the same, until a Deadra jumps out and bites your head off, but then its too late.