Well said.


I agree. Regions should have varying difficulty and creatures should be "spawned" in a more logical way.


This could quickly get out of hand. In Oblivion it's possible to make many creatures appear out of "one" Leveled Creature List, but only if the level designer wants to make it so. It should stay that way.

In general, I like the concept of "Leveled Lists", because they can be used both as a way of balancing encounters AND/OR randomising them. Morrowind had level scaling and few people complained about it, because it was much less drastic than Oblivion's one.

It should be level designer's decision where to put leveled lists (and which ones) and where to put hand-placed creatures (and which ones). In some places the level-designer may want to put only dremoras instead of all kinds of Daedra or he/she may decide that in a given room atronachs would be much more interesting type of enemies than clannfears or scamps. There are moments when unique, unscaled enemy is the best option, accompanied by two leveled opponents (with level caps) for balance. It all should serve some purpose. The more variety there is, the better. The more balanced things are, the better. The more "seamless" the experience is, the better - that's why scamps shouldn't disappear from the game's world after a given level etc.

Each cave/fort/landscape type/whatever should have a little "something" (sometimes it may be hidden) to make it more fun to explore. An unique rock formation, interesting lighting or unique sounds for the atmosphere purposes, funny "packs" of trees, mystic ruins surrounded by thick forests etc. Even if things are randomly generated at first, it will feel good if the level designer steps in and make one in three cells unique in some way. Possibilities are numerous.

Far less use of level scaling. I voted the fallout option ignoring the horrible bullet-sponge enemies at higher levels in f3. I think some areas should have set out high levels or small scaling too keep them stronger than you.

On the subject of item scaling i think it should be possible to find good items at the start but maybe not be able to use them yet.Or have a chance of failure for using a item too strong for your level.It also seems kinda silly for bandits and goblins too be decked out in glass or daedric armor just because your getting stronger.

Few people complained because Morrowind didn't have level scaling. It had leveling, but no scaling.

Not true. Many creatures and items appeared in many places only after you reached a given level. However, it was mixed with hand-placed creatures/loot, so the overall experience was better.

Morrowind had it right imo.

Oh Oh, don't get me started on scaling.

If I spend 150 Hours playing a game which is pretty much all about gaining experience and becoming stronger. I don't want to be struggling against the same enemies which I was fighting 20 levels earlier. The problem is keeping the game challenging throughout while still having a sense of progression. Scaling is probably the easiest and most unimaginative way of doing this. How about no scaling at all!

You go somewhere you shouldn't be yet, you get your ass kicked. Come back later! simple! Or/And... make physical barriers to get to those harder places like caves that magically open up once certain conditions have been met. Higher places that you need special boots to get to, stuff like that. Eventually when the game runs out of harder and harder enemies, IE when I'm a god and can kill every enemy with one hit (which after 150 hours I think I'm entitled to be able to) then make it so you have to think laterally to fight the later enemies rather than kill em with one swipe. For example, super heat a rock troll with fire then super cool them to make them brittle and then you can shatter them, otherwise they just keep getting back up. Or an enemy which you need a really accurate bow and arrow strike to kill otherwise everything else justs bounces off. Sounds lame I know but just examples. Much better than cheating by scaling! If thats too much work then as a very last resort different stronger versions of the same enemies, Morrowind did this alot. When new content arrives to download, scale the whole thing and set it based on current level.

Also another idea would be to move the gameplay away from battle once you get really strong, IE more about dealing with people and politics, finding rare stuff. Sure you can smite enemies on the way but now that you're super strong the battles and fighting take a back seat to other gameplay elements.

One of the most annoying things is scaled special weapons and artifacts. If you quest for a special weapon too early then Oblivion stunts it and makes it weaker than it's full potential. A stunted version if you like. I find that really annoying, it's the same on Fallout 3 also. I think it comes as a by product of scaling the enemies. Again, you try and get the umbra sword or whatever early in the game. You get your ass kicked, comeback later.

I loved the feeling of progression in Morrowind from struggling to fight a rat at the beginning to being able to kill a dremora with a single shot. I say lose the scaling altogether! Get smart about keeping the gameplay challenging.

Thanks for reading, I know I'm mostly stating the obvious but what do you think?

Scaling can go die in a ditch.

That is to say, it works very well for a console game, and I don't play console games.

Which is also to say, I like mods.

It can go die in a hole.
As it stands now, you can enter a cave, fort or Ruin, and already know everything that'll be there.
Some mods to make this less annoying, but it would be best to just forget it entirely.
I want to take a chance, will that ruin be filled with rats when I'm level 50? Or Liches at level 3? Instead of how it is now, "Oh I'm level one, it will have Imps."

I want no level scaling. It would be nice to have areas you can't go to and not die. Would also be nice if guessing what enemies were where was less predictable (this wasn't as big of a problem in MW).

No scaling. I really don't know why RPG developers seem so attached to it.

Wow, this thread's an old one. Of course, I'll say it again.

No scaling.

I think a game should use a variety of models for enemy difficulty distribution, depending on what's appropriate for the setting. Were I to redesign Oblivion's system, it would go something like this.

1. Bandits. Bandit difficulty should be pretty much set from the beginning, with a mix of larger numbers of lower level bandits, smaller numbers of higher level ones. Bandits should also allow the option of surrendering your loot if you can't take them. This allows for the phenomenon of meeting a particular bandit at a low level, surrendering because he pwned you in your last savegame, then coming back a number of levels levels later to return the favor.

2. Standard Monsters. The kind of monsters that spawn would depend on distance from one of the major cities or main roads. The further you got from these areas, the more difficult the monsters you would encounter. I'd also add some regional variation, so that the monster list for the mountains in the north is not the same for the forests of the Imperial Reserve, is not the same as the swampy region to the south, is not the same as the gold coast. This variation would not be a variation of difficulty (aside from the fact that some monsters would be more dangerous to certain kinds of characters than other types).

3. Daedra. This part of the idea implies something I'd really like to see some day, which is the acknowledgement of time as a gameplay factor that actually matches the narration. Daedra spawns linked to gates would depend on how much time had passed since the start of the game; they'd get more dangerous as the game progressed. I'd go so far as to make the strength of the highest level daedra, in sufficient numbers, sufficient to break the game by doing things like killing off NPCs in towns (being stronger than the guards at some point). This would make the existential threat of the Daedra and the urgency of your mission REAL from a gameplay perspective. The game's difficulty level, rather than being based on making enemies stronger or the PC weaker, could be based on how long it takes for the daedra to build up. Settings could range from from "leisurely" which is for those who don't want to have to worry about the time factor at all, doing side-quests and factions at will, the main quest at their leisure (the standard ES way), to something like "frantic" where you have to powerlevel like mad to beat the main quest before the main quest beats your savegame.

That third option is the one that would be completely different from game to game. In Morrowind, it could be an increase in blighted creatures and the gradual awakening of "sleepers" in the towns, potentially with the Ordinators sending ever more powerful enforcers after you once you reached a certain point in the main quest. In an imaginary "Skyrim" based around the eruption of old divisions in the absence of a strong Imperial presence, you could have relationships between factions slowly drop over time, with NPCs literally attacking one another in the streets if the situation degenerates too far before the PC manages to deal with the situation. If the main quest includes a time-based, existential threat, there are ways to translate that into gameplay.

The basic idea, I guess, is that as far as is possible, the scaling of enemies and loot should be based upon space and time within the setting, rather than gameplay considerations. Of course, gameplay considerations should be paramount... just the solutions should flow from consideration of the setting, rather than a ham-fisted attempt to make the game "fun" independently of the setting.

In fallout 3 enemy levels became fixed on first visit, so if you visited at level 5 and came back at level 15 the enemy would still be level 5, this is from a FAQ I have not noticed it myself.

Main problem with placed items, is that everybody runs for them. You can penetrate a harder area than you usually would in hunt of an awesome item. Go broke buying potions and scrolls, sneak all the time loads of invisibility potions. This was avoided in fallout 3 because you needed ammo for Lincolns repeater to be useful, vengeance was expensive to repair.

Yes you can avoid it the important items is very deep into enemy territories, totally avoided with level/ skill limits on quest to get them, I agree totally on easy/ hard areas

I think most of the comments I've seen on here are way too extreme.

There should be both level scaling and areas with predetermined monsters. Most of the time you should be attacked by creatures that give you a challenge but aren't way out of your league. Every once in a while you should run into an area where the monsters are clearly way too powerfull for a low level character and later on in the game you should run into creatures that are way too weak to even challenge you so you can swat them away and feel that you've grown as a warrior or whatever.

All or nothing is stupid, it needs to be a good mix of both so that you get that sense of fear and awe sometimes and sometimes you just get to backhand a little monster but most of the time you are fighting creatures that are leveled to what is a good challenge but not something you should fear outright.

Keep the really scary stuff away from most roads as they should be well traveled and mostly secure. I agree 100% that the guards should scale depending on your bounty and abilities. Loot should work just like the monsters, the further from civilization the better a chance at grabbing some really nice rare loot, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't find a clay cup every once in a while too. Most of the loot would be appropriate for your level or the level of the monsters around you. In an area where you should be out-gunned by the baddies and it's amazing you even got past them to the loot you should be able to find some super nice stuff, simple as that.


Also, I'd like to see some "goblin totem wars", I don't want to be the only guy out there kicking some monster ass. Lets' see a pack of wolves too rather than lone wolves that make no sense. Random encounters (a la fallout 3) are essential too. I want to see some necromancers brawling with some knights and suddenly a Minitaur lord, who thinks they're too close to his maze, runs up to kill them all as the sun sets and a lightning storm ensues, that's the elder scrolls I'm looking for.

Fallout 3's (and Morrowind's) level

Morrowind used the same level scaling system as Oblivion with some differences. It was some hard areas with fixed level monsters, mainly daedra. No npc was levelled as I know. Some loot was leveled, mainly content in containers, other was mostly dropped by high level enemies.

Upside was that you got challenges at low levels. However the lack of high level content and mostly low level npc made the game easy from level 15 and up. Fixed loot made it easy to get real good equipment at low level, yes you can kill someone far stronger than you if you are wiling to spend lots of healing potions, summon golden saint scrolls or tricks like levitate and ranged attack, if you could not use invisibility and grab it.

Now they tried to fix this in Oblivion, it did not work very well but Oblivion is far more balanced than Morrowind.

Fallout did this pretty well, some hard areas, had a logical reason why harder enemies arrived as enclave emerged. Had much fixed loot but solved Morrowinds problem with making it's ammo hard to get at low levels. However the game also lacked high level content so they added some real tough enemies who start appearing at high levels.

Every creature is available and at PC level 1, i.e. PC will get owned when facing high level stuff until they get close to that level so many areas are off limits for a new PC. Once PC levels past creature level, creature stats start to level with PC so we have a challenge when visiting previous areas, although equipment and gear isn't changed, i.e. no Glass armor for level 30 bandits with 90+ blade and light armor.


Ideally, this would keep the PC out of higher level areas while keeping the PC from steamrolling everything at higher levels, which for some reason, people seem to be fond of. (I heard god mode was fun... /wrists)


The problem with that proposal is that you're restricted to those FEW level 100 monster areas to get a challenge at end game, although it's still a good proposal for the most part.

Maybe have a new game+ type of mode where all monsters have a few 100 skills/attributes and PC's major skills/fav attributes start at 100?


Or we could have this and have the option to skip the entire leveling gimick...

scaling should be an option, or have the same type of scaling as NV

i think scale leveling was a great feature to oblivion it made more areas useful. Instead of there being a low level area thats useless there isn't. and it also adds more realism as your not just the only thing playing the game and other creatures and people get stronger over time.

I'd understand that if a couple special npcs and monsters were scaled to be bosses, but when many of the creatures level to you it just kills the feeling of progression and achievement, which ultimately is what the older Elder Scrolls had that Oblivion didn't imo.

i do see your point being able to beat the game at lvl 1 and never level up is kind of silly, thus the monsters staying at one level.

I kind of want it like fallout 3, some scaling, even morrowind have some scaling. I don't want it to the point of Oblivion, though.

Although, F3 still had that problem with some high end enemies being serious health pools, that took forever, I'd like to see monsters with low health but insane dmg output. Makes the way you enter the fight much more strategically important.

No, there was no scaling in Morrowind. Morrowind had leveling but no scaling.

Morrowind totally had scaling.

No, it did not. Some definitions:

Loot Leveling - controls when loot appears
Enemy Leveling - controls when enemies appear
Loot Scaling - controls the strength of loot once it has appeared
Enemy Scaling - controls the strength of enemies once they have appeared

In practical terms what does this mean? When players talk about bandits in Daedric armor they're talking about loot leveling. When they talk about about putting off a Daedric quest to get the best version of a weapon they're talking about loot scaling. When they talk about about the landscape being suddenly populated by Minotaurs that weren't there a half hour ago they're talking about enemy leveling. When they talk about Goblin Warlords that get stronger as the player levels they're talking about enemy scaling.

Morrowind did not have scaling. Morrowind had leveling.