You can't have a sandbox without level scaling. Otherwise, it becomes a pseudo-open linear RPG where you get your ass handed to you if you happen to stray from the right path. Level scaling allows you to go anywhere you please and still get a proper challenge. Skyrim delivers in this regard.

Right... in most rpg games... rpg games... like these right? :facepalm:

Now i understand why people want level scaling. Because they compare them to hack n slash or mmorpgs... People don't even know what rpgs are these days, haven't played any real rpgs and think the only way to make a game is either linearity or scaling. Sad.



More like fail-tip.
The old school rpgs that had level scaling had enemies "scaling" in just numbers or level scaling was too subtle to even notice.

Yeah, Ultima, Might and Magic, KOTOR, Morrowind...

oh wait, these games had level scaling too :teehee:


So? Scaling is scaling either way.

I heard this stupid argument so many times it's getting tiring. Go google the "level scaling" of Ultima and IF you had played morrowind remember how the scaling was done. Skyrims scaling is totally different.

I've also put tens of hours in and I can slap the crap outta bandits... couldn't do that before. They might be scaling, but not as fast as I am.

Level scaling is something I will only tolerate in major questlines, to keep them challenging.

The world itself though doesn't need to be scaled just to allow people the entitlement of going wherever they want. Whatever happened to going into dangerous territory, realizing you would meet sudden death, and either turning tail, or running for your life to try and bypass/get around the obstacles in your way?

To those who may have ever played the original Everquest...do you not remember the terror and excitement of safely making the trip from Freeport to Qeynos at level 1?

Whether 'scaling' is inevitable or not, Skyrim's implementation is awful.

I'm constantly running into opponents around level 19-20 which are effectively unbeatable for 1v1 regular world opponents. (Can kill them by spamming healing potions, but this is not practical).

I've done a HUGE amount of crafting, really enjoyed all the systems for it... and my reward is to be killed in 5 hits by something I can barely damage.

Totally effin over it and this will be the last TES game I play. I just cannot trust Bethseda at all to make a fun GAME. I could wander around Skyrim doing quests and marvelling at the art for weeks, but the gameplay in this is weaker than many decade old RPGs.

Hire a [censored] game designer instead of a stupid maths dork please. This is no fun. =/

Scaling in Skyrim is exactly the same as in Morrowind, except NPCs can scale now too.

No, they don't suddenly gain more HP or other stat or whatever, they're sometimes replaced with a stronger version of that enemy, for example in a bandit camp on higher level, you'll meet more Bandit Chiefs.


Same in Morrowind, Blighted creatures will appear after around level 10 before that you'll barely meet them.

I call [censored]! Seriously thats not even remotetly in the realm of reality. There have been plenty of amazing RPG's that far out class anything that came before, Dragons Age Origins for example. Their was nothing linear about that campaign at all. Even before you start which class you chose completetly changed how the game was played. Every dialogue you had with every NPC no matter how in significant offered several options that changed the direction, result and impact of the quest on the main plot. Thats just one example.

Elder Scrolls is a different approach, its goal isn't to be a classic CRPG, but rather an open world sandbox in which you simply play for playing sake. You choose which story's to participate in and although the story's themeselves are linear, the game world is anything but. Its a different approach but it certainly has all the fixings of a great game. I don't see how level scaling has anything to do with a game either being or not being an RPG, its just one way to handle the mechanics of balance.

Do the players who complain about level scaling actually play the game long enough to see that you do become god? An armoured character with perks and smithing is near unkillable in melee and stealth snipers and backstabbers who use some magic dont even get detected. Pure mage is the most fun as your powerful spells take a while to earn and you can sometimes get into bad situations. I have tried to limit my characters to NOT using all the skills after my initial playthrough.

I think Skyrim has a pretty good mix of static and scaled areas (it has both, play the damn game and see for yourself) and my only problem with any of the scaling is that every dreugr is a deathlord shouting fus ro da into my headphones at my level on the initial toon. Its a petty complaint though as most of them dont even get close enough to shout at me or I hit the mute button in time.

They were not the same at all. Yes blighted creatures, daedras etc spawned if you were high enough but they didn't scale with you every 4-5 levels. Bandits did not become thugs then highwaymen then marauders etc etc and there were places that you just couldn't go if you were low lvl. I've completed like 90% of the dungeons in Skyrim (master dif) and everything was on my level and finished them without any problems. Same with open world mobs save for some exceptions.

Thing is i knew what mobs i would find, i knew what loot i would find... What's the fun in this?

That aspect has always been a neutral for me really. I mean, going back to the Ultima I-IV days of the early to mid 80s (I go as far back to before there were cRPGs, playing table top D&D games from the mid to late "70s"), where you would get owned outright setting it on the hardest difficulties and how that style went all the way through Dragon Age: Origins. I love DA:O and going back to Fallouts 1&2, Baldur's Gate, NWNs, etc. But, when I actually made it to higher levels and obtained better weapons and armors, the games became very easy. Only the modding I did and from other kept the game challenging. Even then, the scaling onl goes so far and having the advantage of bringing along a companion with exponentially powerful armors, weapons, potions etc, I don't mind the scaling. For me mostly, it's about player agency and story depth, Skyrim seems to be coming though on that, though there are some quest bugs that need to be fixed.

Borderlands was definitely an RPG....

So spawned enemies scale up to your level?

So that's why I can still one-hit kill a normal Bandit...


And if the game is static.. wouldn't you already know what enemies to face, what items you'll get?

Couldn't have said it better.

Game pops up a few non-scaled enemies along with the scaled to give you a sense of progression. For example 10/15 draugs will become restless, 3 will stay draugs and 2 will become scourge, something like that. The overall picture stays the same. But this is essentially pointless since there will always be upgraded versions of monsters around. Likewise there won't be any real danger for low levels.

If it's static and you play the game for the first time you will know nothing! If you replay it and remember what range of levels for example each dungeon had you will approximately know - but again, at your replay. "High level mob areas" would have chances for higher level loot. The loot would depend on the monster level not on your level. Atm every single dungeon i visited had monsters according to my level and the loot range was standard. I could even guess what quallity of gear was in the chests even if i had not visited the dungeon before.

Level-scaling enemies with a limit isn't so bad, imo. Some enemies should be considered strong enough to level with the player, imo. Deathclaws from Fallout, for instance. They're considered to be absolute beasts that can kill you in a second flat, and thus I think it'd be odd if the player leveled to a point where they hit you for jack. Lichs are the same; these are wizards who are "immortal" and went through a complicated ritual to make themselves so. It'd be odd if they were weak.
The problem occurs when ALL enemies level or when the enemy spawns level. For example, if ONLY deathclaws level with the player in Fallout New Vegas, but then the games reaction to a character being level 50 is to spawn deathclaws at every single spawn point in the game (including ones that used to spawn friggin' wolves and coyotes), then we have a problem and that completely defeats the purpose of only having one scaled enemy. Oblivion was guilty of this. If you check the wiki, only 7-8 enemies in Oblivion scaled to the player, but after level 30, it was those 7-8 monsters that were the only things that would ever spawn.
As for Skyrim, the problem is that the game is literally built around a very specific mob type: dragons. The result is that if dragons don't level, people will be laughing, but if dragons do matter, then it honestly doesn't matter if nothing else does, because THIS is the enemy we have to prepare ourselves for and be ready to fight at any given moment. We can't choose to avoid them because they're somewhat random. In that sense, I think dynamic dragons in Skyrim was a very stupid design idea.


And leveled quest rewards? Stupidest ****ing idea TES has ever produced. I have no clue why they insisted on keeping this. All it does is discourages people from questing until they're level 30+, which is BOOOOOOORING.

Errrr.... mate.... Deathclaws, dragons etc should NOT scale to be considered strong and important. In order for them not to be weak you just set a very high standard for them -they should be high level and impossible to kill from the start.

And yes you won't be able to kill them at level 10. So what? Is that so bad? On the opposite when you manage to kill them at level 50 it will feel 100 times more epic and rewarding.

Just like in Morrowind.

... except, you know, duneons with named bosses at the end... like named Dragon Priests...

Wrong.

This

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Well with deathclaws, I suppose I included that because generally when you set a STANDARD, then people will always be able to exceed it. I didn't mean make it so you can kill one at level one, but rather make it so they continue to be a challenge from level 30 to level 50. They should never lose their fear factor, and thus should level-scale. What I meant was yes, have a standard for level 1-30 that will be really hard to beat even at level 25 or so, but continue adapting them for higher levels aswell.

As for dragons, I agree. That's what I meant by the idea of centering your game around a particular enemy type is a poor design choice. The way they set it up, it'd be impossible to avoid dragons until level ~25, so they have to level scale. However, when they level scale, then it means that no matter how strong you get, those damned things will still annoy and kill you.

Did you expect anything different when speaking of the "level-scaling" in an TES game? Do you not know you can type ~ then TGM then ~? I do not understand the point of your thread. The resources are with in the game for you to adjust to be "god-like" to say nothing of the difficulty level you could adjust. The "problem" you supposedly can not get past is not really a problem if the game allows you to make adjustments to the game state to make you more "god like".

The fact is - however many millions of threads get opened about this - the way that level scaling has turned out is embedded within the history of ES games, and customer's responses to them. They haven't just "created" the system from nothing - they responded to people complaining about MW getting too easy; they responded to complaints about OB being silly, and the result is this kind of halfway house. That's not to say it's perfect, of course. But whatever they do next, I think it's fair to say that they will be tweaking this system of level scaling, rather than removing it completely, or trying a dramatically new one.

This is why I think points about level scaling that have clear senses of how you could improve it within the game are infinitely more interesting than those that want it removed, or don't like the fact that on a particular playthrough it hasn't worked out in their favour.

I dont see why ppl are crying , elder scrolls games are easy on the hardest difficulty.