Level Scaling in Skyrim, Part 3 : V

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:41 am

The second topic was capped and no one seems to have made a third . . . so here it is! :wavey:

Thread #2: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1148814-remove-extensive-level-scaling-in-skyrim-part-2/page__st__200__p__16832647__hl__level+scaling__fromsearch__1#entry16832647
-- Last post: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1148814-remove-extensive-level-scaling-in-skyrim-part-2/page__view__findpost__p__16832637

Thread #1: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1148458-remove-level-scaling-in-skyrim/page__view__findpost__p__16789134

This thread is here to see how the community feels about level scaling in past games, and what kind of scaling system we want in Skyrim. Hopefully we'll be able to show Bethesda what worked and what didn't work in their previous games to help them perfect the system for their next game. Here are my own thoughts on level scaling, taken from thread #2 and expanded upon somewhat... Let me know what you think of my ideas, or just post your own thoughts and ideas regarding level scaling in TES V.

I know there's a lot of text here so feel free to just skip it and post your own thoughts, I won't feel bad.

In general, I believe there should be no scaling applied to enemies throughout the game, with the one exception being the main quest. I think the enemies in the main quest should be scaled based on the player's level so that if someone wants to do the main quest all at once right out of the tutorial, it should be possible but challenging. Likewise, if someone wants to wait and do the main quest at level 40, it should be at least challenging enough that it's not boring or unrewarding. Though I do think that someone doing the main quest at level 40 should have an advantage over some doing it at level 1, so the scaling should not be 1:1, and the rewards should also be more enticing.

But outside of the main quest, my idea involves basically no scaling at all. It is based on a very natural state of order. The idea is that as one gets closer to civilization, the enemies one finds are significantly less of a threat. Conversely, as one wanders farther away from civilization, one will find stronger enemies in greater frequencies (but of course, you will also find better loot this way, as well as some cool unique people/places). This could be achieved by mapping out "zones" on the map, kind of like a topographic map with terrain lines indicating height, only instead of height, the lines would indicate the levels of enemies. So major cities would lie in the safest zones, where there are very few wild enemies to be found and the ones you do find are generally non-threating. The next closest zone would have low-level creatures that might be a bit of a challenge to a fresh character, but generally pose little or no threat. The next zone would have slightly stronger creatures and maybe at a slightly higher density, and so on as you venture further from that "safe zone" with the city.

I think this system would be fairly simple to design and program; certainly it wouldn't require a significant amount of extra work than pretty much any other system Bethesda might consider. It would also help to ensure that as you level up, you are constantly able to explore new places. It doesn't necessarily prevent low leveled characters from exploring for the most part, but it does make them prepare more, and it will encourage them to work toward a higher level so they will have more luck surviving in the deeper areas of the wilderness. I don't think this system would really constrict low-leveled players, but I know that possibly the strongest argument against it is that it makes many areas effectively unaccessible to them because their odds of survival would be so low... But to me that is a good thing; it is an incentive to go explore the areas you can access without too much risk, and train in those places so that you will be able to go to the more dangerous areas sooner.

? So for an example of this system in action, let's look at our friend Joe Adventurer, level 1, fresh out of the tutorial. He has no reason to worry about getting killed immediately because he is unlikely to face anything more dangerous than a weak goblin or rat. This is not due to enemy scaling, but rather because Joe emerges in an area that is relatively close to a major city. Joe has two options: [A] he can venture into the forest ahead of him, or [B] he can head to the city behind him. For simplicity's sake, let's assume these are his only options. Let's also assume that he knows he is supposed to meet someone in the city to continue the main quest, and he also knows that the forest holds dangers he may not be able to handle.

-- Here is what will most likely happen to Joe if he chooses Path A: He will soon encounter something like a bandit or a mountain lion, and try to fight it. Despite being warned that he would face some danger, he went into the forest anyway. If he is very lucky, he may survive a few encounters and get a bit of extra loot, but most likely he will either die or be forced to run back to the city. Lesson learned... For now, Joe is too weak to stray far from civilization.

-- Here is what will happen if Joe chooses Path B: He will enter the city, find the person he needs to meet, and learn what the next step is in his journey. Here he may also have the option of joining some factions. From here, Joe has several ways of gaining some experience... He can do some low level field work for a faction/guild to earn some money/experience and better equipment, or he can continue with the main quest (where the game will by default not provide anything too challenging), or he can look around the city for some easy jobs to do for a bit of money/experience without associating himself with a faction. Joe has successfully avoided putting himself in any real danger, but after a few jobs and/or some work on the main quest, Joe will be able to venture deeper into that forest.

? Now let's look at Joe Adventurer, level 30. Joe is now a powerful and experienced warrior. He has been into that same forest dozens of times; he's travelled a mile or two into the darkest, most secluded reaches of trees. He discovers an ancient mine in the mountains on the other side. Joe enters the mine, and finds that it contains some enemies even stronger than those in the forest. He is well stocked though, and is able to venture deep into the mine before he is forced to return for rest and supplies. He returns with a hefty supply of loot, but also the knowledge that there is more yet to discover in the cave.

? Joe is now level 45. He's now been almost everywhere on the map. That forest that was once impenetrable is now child's play. But he still hasn't gone all the way through that mine. He stocks up for the journey and heads once more through the forest and into the mine. He faces many foes, but at level 45, they fall to his blade. He soon reaches the deepest chambers of the mine, where an ancient creature dwells. This is among the strongest creatures in the game. Even at level 45, Joe cannot defeat the monster, but he manages to escape with his life. While Joe was in that chamber, he noticed a recess in the wall that looked like it led upwards, to a different area of the mine. But since he could not defeat the monster, he was unable to explore it. He returns, battered and bruised, but with a decent supply of loot still from earlier in the cave (he didn't bother taking loot from the forest since it wasn't worth taking for a character of his power and wealth).

? Joe, now level 55, is just about as strong as he will ever be. He has travelled far and wide, and by means of stealth, force, and financial savvy, he has procured a very imposing set of skills, coupled with some of the finest equipment from all of Skyrim, and even a few special items to be used in emergencies. He is ready once again to face the monster of the mine. He travels through the forest and into the heart of the mine. Joe is so strong now that getting to this deep chamber was fairly easy, and he still has almost all of his supplies and health when he faces the monster in the mine. After a long and epic battle, the beast finally succumbs to Joe's blade. Joe harvests some rare material from the kill and heads into the recess in the wall he had noticed 10 levels earlier. Inside, he finds a path leading to a new chamber, full of rare gemstones. Joe mines the gemstones, and continues along the pathway until he finds an old stone door. Joe opens the door to find that he is now on the other side of the mountain, in a small region of land that he had not been able to reach before, for the mine is the only entrance to this area. Joe vows to return and explore the area fully, but right now, his pockets are full with valuable gems and rare hides and organs from the slain beast in the mine.

? Joe returns to the city and sells the gemstones. He uses the creature's hide to craft a powerful cloak for himself. The cloak is imbibed with the magic of the fallen monster, and carries a strong enchantment to protect Joe. After selling his loot and restocking on supplies, Joe is ready to explore that new region on the other side of the mountain. Though the land is not particularly large, Joe will find some very interesting things there... There will be a small village inhabited by an isolated tribe of Nords. They will revere Joe as a demigod for slaying the legendary beast from the mine, and reward him greatly for this deed. Joe will then have the option of aiding the village in various jobs, if he so chooses. The land has a rich historic value because of this village, and also the special plants that only grow on this side of the mountain. Joe harvests some of these plants to be used in potion-making, and after thanking the villagers for their hospitality, he returns once again through the mine and the forest, back into that city.

Only now, at level 55, has Joe fully explored all that there was to explore in and beyond that forest that he first saw at level 1. He developed over time, and as he grew in power, he was able to explore deeper and deeper into the wilderness. At around level 30, he had seen most that there was to see, but it wasn't until level 55 that he was able to see it all.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:06 am

Usually when you are the thread creator and you create a new thread in an ongoing discussion you should have the courtesy of linking to the old thread so that people who haven't read the discussion yet can go back and read it instead of trudging through pages and pages to find it - particuarly when it is a high volume forum like this one is currently.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:29 am

Usually when you are the thread creator and you create a new thread in an ongoing discussion you should have the courtesy of linking to the old thread so that people who haven't read the discussion yet can go back and read it instead of trudging through pages and pages to find it - particuarly when it is a high volume forum like this one is currently.

Sorry, I'll get right on that. Honest mistake, please forgive me. :foodndrink:

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:41 am

In all honesty the only bad thing about the level scaling in Oblivion was the equipment scaling.

Other than that the level scaling wasn't that bad and only really a handful of enemies really truly leveled up with you. I would like to see level scaling in that it does add to the challenge.

I would however also like different leveled monsters in areas so even though the game is leveled it still has certain areas that have stronger monsters that can kill you if you wander into an area that has high level monsters. Basically a mixed level scaling and set level areas.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:29 am

Ok, I want to give an example of a world with absolutely no scaling the level of monsters and items to the level of the player, and prove that it would work as immensely enjoyable game that gives a huge sense of achievement.

First of all, the level scaling of items and monsters should be based on the position not the player, thus if an area is low level, then it is filled with monsters and loot suitable for low level players, with a minimal chance of finding higher level loot in there.

And if the danger level of an area is mid-level, then it should be suitable for mid-level characters, with midlevel monsters mixed with lower level ones, and a mixed loot, mostly lower level loots mixed with occasional mid-level stuff and a low chance of finding higher level loots, except for boss monsters and their personal stash that should always contain higher level loot.

And if the danger level of an area is high, then one should find a mix of mid-level to higher level monsters, with occasional low level monsters thrown in, and the loot should be a mix of low level to higher level loot with the emphasis on mid-level loot, and a minimal chance of finding real treasures in the encounters, and containers.

There should also be ultra-high level places that would be too much even for high level characters, with increasingly more chance of finding really great loot in those areas as you advance toward even higher level places.

These places should be there for players that like to have more challenges even when they have completed the main quest, and developed really high level characters, so they can gradually conquer those areas bit by bit, while developing their characters even more and finding better loot to help them with the next area, and so on...

This way with any advancement of your character, and with any better loot you find, you become even more powerful and you can survive in new areas that you could not hope to survive, and this relatively safe area can rapidly broaden as you develop your character, but there would always remain some places deep within dungeons or in unreachable surface areas that would remain too hard for even high level areas.

This world is filled with immense sense of progression and achievement.

As for cheating to obtain high level loot from high level areas, this can be prevented, or made into an advantage for the game, so for instance:

The invisibility effect of the spells should never be absolute, or you might call that camouflage or obfuscate to show the fact that it is not absolute.

The monsters can have a sight power or keenness to counter the effect of invisibility, this way, although the lower level monsters would have low level of keenness and could be easily avoided with low level invisibility spells afforded for low level mage characters, the higher level monsters found in the higher level areas could easily break through the power of the spell with their higher level of keenness, or sight power.

Thus if as a low level spell caster, you cast a low level invisibility spell, you might be able to avoid lower level monsters, but would not get past those higher level guards in the higher level areas, so cheating is off.

This also applies to skills like sneak, and spells like unlock and so on, as those skills and spells might seem adequate in lower level areas, but as you enter higher level areas, you would find your arsenal lacking, and might have to advance with more caution to be able to develop your character and his arsenal with more deliberation to be able to overcome the increasingly level of challenge ahead.

But a clever player with a well-chosen set of skills and stuff might be able to stick to the shadowy areas, or might be able to use the environment to his benefit and outrun the resident evil of the higher level areas and with a bit of luck gain access to a high level stash of items and run away for his life back to lower level areas with an immense sense of triumph and enjoy the new found treasure for a while and it is his rightful trophy, and no one could say that it is a cheat.

When a quest leads you to higher level areas, you might have to wait for a bit to become more prepared to be able to complete the quest, and those quests should yield to rewards in proportion to the danger level of the areas that they are set.

As for character development, the level of experience you gain in any skill, should be in proportion to the difficulty of the task, so if you are a character with a high skill level of sword play, and you kill a low level bandit with a blunt low level knife, you should gain little experience in sword play, because your opponent caused you little trouble, and added nothing to your knowledge of swordplay.

But a higher level opponent would be a better chance if you want to advance your skills, so the players would automatically chose the areas that would give them a moderate challenge in their tasks, and would not linger in lower level areas to power game and advance in levels, because it would take a really long time that way.

Also the level of experience that a player gains while hitting a monster with a weapon should be in proportion to the damage dealt, not the number of times that you hit an opponent, so power gaming with low level weapons would be out, as it would not be different if you kill a monster with a low damage weapon or high damage weapon, but the amount of damage you dealt in total, so you chose your best weapon for each fight and the fights would end sooner and would not bore you.

This also applies to non-combat skills, like mercantile, so you do not sell your loot one by one to the merchant, but sell them all at once and gain level by the total value of the loot, not the number of items.

The spells should follow this rule and give experience with the total power of the spell effects not the total number of casts.

This would result in a streamlined game, with no need for power gaming and doing things repeatedly with low level items or spells in order to gain experience in repeating minimal actions.

In another note, low level foes should be more interested in saving their own hide and keeping their distance from higher level players, but as they would give relatively low level of skill experience and loot, then it would be no problem, but maybe some players enjoy chasing those poor bastards, and finishing them off with one blow, or spell.

I don't understand why should be such a fight over level scaling, as BGS can make a formula that can potentially satisfy both parties on this debate.

They can have another height map for the entire map of the game world, but in this height map they could define the minimum possible level of the monsters, and they can have another virtual height map for the world area to define the maximum possible level for monster levels, and another two virtual height maps to define the limits for loot level in different areas of the map.

There can be a GMST value that defines the percentage amount of level scaling to the player or the area level, so if it is 100 then the monsters are completely level scaled to the player level, and if the value is 0 then they are completely leveled to the area's defined limits for monster levels.

There can be another GMST value that would define the loot level scaling just like the one above which was about monster level scaling.

So if the first value is 0, and monsters are defined wholly by area limits, then they have a completely random chance to be any level between the height map values defined or the area, and if the first value was defined 100, then monsters would be scaled to the player level just like Oblivion, and for the numbers in between, the monster levels would be between two limits that are drawn toward the level of the player.

The second value would do the same for item levels.

As for the internal/indoor cells, each cell can have a pointer that defines a cell in the outside area, and this pointer links the indoor cell to that outdoor cell, and can be used for spells like jump outside, Divine Intervention, and the like, and can link the inside's environmental ambient sounds to the weather condition of the linked outside cell.

And also the internal cell's minimum and maximum levels for monsters and loot can be taken from the linked outside cell, and adjusted by two values that are added to the outside values.

So an indoor cell can link to an outside cell, and have two values of 10 and 5 for monster levels, and 5 and 0 for item levels, which means, add 10 level to the maximum monster level of outside cell, and 5 to the minimum monster level, and add 5 to the maximum item level of the outside cell, and 0 to the minimum item level.

In Oblivion when a player entered a cell, the random list on that cell would check the player level and depending on that value, select a monster or an item from the list and place that on the ground or inside an inventory.

But this value can be calculated from a formula that checks the minimum and maximum area levels for monsters and items, and the level of the player and those two GMST values that define the percentage of the effect that the player level has on those limits and get a final semi-random result for the level value.

Then the final calculated level value is used for the random list to get the desired monster or item.

This way by changing two GMST values in the range between 0-100 we can have monsters and/or items that are totally scaled to the player level or completely independent from player and scaled to the limits defined by the area, or something in between.

You can keep both parties pleased, and by default we can have a 10 percent player level effect for 90 percent area based scale for the loot and monsters.

All of those are for random lists and do not affect the manually placed monsters and items, and some random monsters and items can be defined as independent from the formula above and define their own specific minimum and maximum levels if the designers like.

Edit: And http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1148814-remove-extensive-level-scaling-in-skyrim-part-2/page__view__findpost__p__16832227 to show a good implementation of no level scaling.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:43 pm

Or you know, he could have used invisibility and sneak to get the gems 20 levels earlier. I digress however because I don't disagree...I have no problem with a bit of level scaling however, if only to make the forest a little harder by allowing some more powerful creatures to "wonder."

Cave creatures need sunlight too. :bolt:

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:51 pm

Sorry, I'll get right on that. Honest mistake, please forgive me. :foodndrink:

Forgiven, thanks heaps. :celebration:

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:43 pm

Awesome ideas about level scaling.

Pretty much your post should be what Bethesda should try to do with level scaling.

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:46 am

Level scaling in Oblivion was one one the greatest flaws it got. It completely broke the feeling of growth of your pc, alongside the feeling of getting stronger then others and being able to reach and adventure to specific place previously unacessible. All of this wasn't in OB, cause in every part you want to go at every part of the game, you can do it. i'm not talking about the game of being less free roaming, cuz i love this, i'm talking about it of being various, as in "reality". In reality we don't have a city homogeneous in every zone. We may have a central park, where EVERYONE is allowed to walk/run/play or whatever, we may have a merchant district, for specific purposes, a central district, where could be several locations of interest, and, we MAY HAVE a more infamous district, a slum, where is not SAFE FOR EVERYONE to roam into. Did you get what i mean? In OB we always had the same level of challenge (low) due to level scaling, only the number of foes was a variable, but at very high lvl, with almost every skill mastery and a holy equipment, there wasn't no more challenge. On this aspect it should be more like gothic games.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:09 am

This is starting to sound as a broken record.

Level scaling is a cheap way to tweak the difficulty and it goes at the cost of immersion.

In Daggerfall it was easy to steal stuff from stores, so they scaled the items for sale in order to prevent you from getting filthy rich at level 1.
In Oblivion they scaled the enemies because then you could do all the quests in any order you want.

What both games miss is this sense of awe and jealousy when you meet NPC's with awesome equipment, the temptation to "come back at night" when you walk in to a store selling items that are all far exceeding your budget and fear and intimidation when you foolishly accepted a quest that's above your capabilities.

Games like Fallout 1 and 2 for example didn't had any level scaling, but had all of those things mentioned above.
Sure, it makes the game harder but also more rewarding. And although it was possible to get a power armor at low level, you had to already played the game before to know how. Same goes with the various tricks in Morrowind, I don't see how that's a problem.

When in Oblivion you get to the point when enemies start having glass equipment, these glass items don't feel like they have much value anymore.

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:42 pm

Just doing away with level scaling completely, even if it would be done region by region (further away from cities - more danger) is too crude, and probably won't make for a great game. Your level should make a difference on how the world looks, because of the huge gap between level 1 and level 50 players and enemies. TES worlds are big, but not big enough to have enough content for each level.

First of all, leveling isn't the only problem. There's also the point of level variety within dungeons and loot scaling. Francesco's mod is a great example of what happens when you fix those problems. Strong enemies and weaker enemies together makes the game a lot more believable. Also making each new category of equipment have less chance of spawning, even if you're at the right level makes finding stronger equipment more fun, and it makes the game more realistic (it solves the bandits in glass armour problem).

I like the idea of regional difficulty. But it shouldn't be entirely static. It's just that there shouldn't be 100% level scaling. If it's more like 50% a lot of the problems are no more.

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:13 am

[#103148] You do not have permission to vote in this poll
... Wtc? >_<
Anyway, I don't like level scaling. At all. Please remove it

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:31 am

level 30 rat giving me, the champion of the empire a hard time? please not again. ever.

also, please do not think that invisible walls funneling me around the game world is in any way a good substitute.

If TES is anything, it is a 1st person, open world sandbox rpg. Do anything you like in that niche, but do not let go of the sandbox rpg crown!

@Sphagne I very much like your ideas for the world without level scaling. Not so convinced on your level scaling though. not that I think it wouldn't be any good, It's one thing to say it like that, it's a whole other think when i start playing. In other words I need to try it out to see if I like how it plays.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:44 am

@Sphagne I very much like your ideas for the world without level scaling. Not so convinced on your level scaling though. not that I think it wouldn't be any good, It's one thing to say it like that, it's a whole other think when i start playing. In other words I need to try it out to see if I like how it plays.

I'm all for a totally non-level-scaled world myself, and like the first suggestion a lot, and in the second post, only threw in the solution for a system that can, with turning of a volume between 0-100, change characteristic from a totally non-level-scaled game to folly level scaled one, so that it can please both sides as they like.

If you follow my third link, you can read my experience with a totally non-level-scaled game, called might and magic 7.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:42 am

I love non-scaling.

I want to know that when I play around the stream, only mudcrabs will be there, but when I go into the mountains, the Balrog could be waiting.
It gives the player a constant goal to look towards, the next monster to beat that is just a little tough.

It makes grinding fun, basically, rather than annoying.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:13 pm

Level scaling... only works for some games. TES is not one of them. Minimal level scaling for Skyrim, please.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:45 am

Just do it the Morrowind way. (leveled list of monsters rather than list of leveled monsters. Yes I know both games could be described as either a leveled list of monsters or a list of leveled list of monsters, but the emphasized leveled is different in Morrowind and Oblivion)

Morrowind was too easy because the strongest creatures were designed for level 20-something characters, so when you reached level 30, it was a walk in the park. However, Bethesda already proved the solution was very simple in Bloodmoon : just add stronger creatures for higher level characters.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:08 am

To gamesas: I am perfectly okay with http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeefGate.

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:30 pm

I hate level scaling. I prefer different areas having different enemies with different levels of challenge. This encourages the player to explore the areas apropriate to their level and complete quests there. This means for more deep exploration and a feeling of accomplishment as the player overcomes challenges and levels up. This was done well in Nehrim.