Oblivion's sorry scaling was a direct reaction to the complaints about the lack of high-level challenges in MW. In other words, MW wasn't scaled enough, but OB was TOO scaled. Has anyone ever heard the word "balance" before?

Using a mix of scaled and unscaled encounters, with regional variations in difficulty, allows a lot more flexibility and range of playability than using one system exclusively across the board.

FO3's "Locking" the difficulty of places you've been doesn't impress me; that's just a way of allowing you to go back later and "complete" dungeons that you died in 16 times before at low level. It won't fix things if the initial encounter was too easy because you power-levelled, or make the rest of the game (besides that one dungeon) any easier if you didn't. It doesn't fix the inherent discrepancy between a "power levelled" and a "role-played" character, which a "regional difficulty" system will. Of course, the problem with purely "regional" systems is that it forces you down "rails" to some extent, and creates places where you can and can't go and expect to survive at particular levels. Once again, a mix works better than any one of the above.

As long as Bethesda finds a way to strike a "reasonable" balance, it should be an improvement over the previous attempts.

I was defending the level scaling, not the variety of creatures (or lack of). Could there have been more variety? Sure. But just because there isn't doesn't mean I hate the game. I really *like* firing an arrow up the rectum of a goblin. It's quite satisfying for me. I say: bring on the goblins, man. If they're too strong because of my level, difficulty gets turned down, arrows fly, goblins die. :shrug:

I'll say it again (because of a post just before mine), in a different way:

The difficulty slider is the solution to the problem of so-called unbalanced level scaling. Monsters got too hard for you at level 15? Turn down the difficulty. I mean, I was surprised to find out just how easy it was to solve the problem! Who would have thought that a mechanic built into the game would actually help when things got overwhelming?! Shocker, I know.

(oh my god, I hate the word 'unbalanced' almost as much as I hate the word 'immersion')

Level Scaling isn't a problem if it's done right. It was overkill in Oblivion as everything was scaled which is ok to a degree but it was way overdone I mean Goblin Warlords anyone, need I say more. If it was up to me Dungeon Bosses, Bosses, and Dragons in general would be leveled Scale with a minimum starting level. Some equipment would only appear at certain levels and lastly you would need to be at a specific Level to start certain quests. As long as Quest Rewards aren't leveled Scaled I hated that in Oblivion with a Passion, I'll have no problems playing under this system. The Black Band should always give you 10 points as a quest reward not 3 points at level 1. Hopefully that's changed in Skyrim.

You'd need some kind of access limitation on those quests then (like the level requirements on the Daedric Shrine quests; or the quest leads to a dungeon whose "minimum level" is higher; or, the quest can't even be found until you've completed other stuff), because otherwise you could get the un-leveled awesome reward too "early" for it's power.

10 Light Armor, 10 Security, 10 Resist Magic isn't broken by any means but I do agree with you about the other stuff.

Having every single NPC in the game tuned to your level removes the entire point of leveling.

So what if your sneak gets better? The NPCs also get better at detecting you.
So what if your damage increases? The NPCs also get more hitpoints.

You are essentially playing the entire game at the same level as the skill ups and level ups mean nothing (which is one of the main reasons I consider Oblivion to be a poorly designed game).

For level scaling to work, the following MUST apply:
1. Enemies are given a level range depending on where they are located (areas near roads should normally be easy enemies in the 1-10 range, areas away from roads should normally be medium enemies in the 7-20 range, and areas in the deep wilderness or around designated difficult dungeons should normally be hard enemies in the 15-30 range, assuming a player level cap of 30). These level ranges should also be weighted so that the lower end of the range has a much higher chance to appear than the higher end. This way the level scaling is dependent upon the NPC location, not the player level. Also, "boss" enemies should always be hand-placed, custom-outfitted, and with a specific level.

2. Enemy gear should be pulled from appropriate lists based on their level, but in no circumstances should Glass or Daedric armor EVER be present on randomly generated NPCs. Only the specifically-generated "boss" enemies should ever have this level of gear and it should be very difficult to acquire a full set (let alone multiple full sets). This allows a player to find and kill enemies who are of a higher level than the player and acquire exceptional gear (for the current level).

3. Loot should be based upon the dungeon's difficulty value. A dungeon that is considered "easy" should have chests with small amounts of gold, inexpensive trash loot, and low-level weapons and armor. It should also have a very low chance to ever drop enchanted items of any range. A dungeon that is considered "hard" should have chests with lots of gold, expensive trash loot, and decent level weapons and armor (again, NO top end armor or weapons in random loot). Additionally, loot will be pulled from dungeon-specific lists. Nothing was more annoying than finding loot that doesn't belong in a dungeon (Dwemer armor and weapons in an Alyeid ruin, high-end alchemy apparati in a maurader cave, etc.). Bandits would be the only group that pulls from every list since they steal from everyone, raid ruins, etc. Also, smugglers and illegal merchandise (which can either be sold on the black market or to shady merchants or turned over to the guards for a small reward and a reputation boost) should be reintroduced as a class of enemy/loot. Finally, many dungeons should have rare or unique loot hand-placed in them to provide an incentive to actually delve into the dungeons (After my first play though in Oblivion, I skipped probably 60-75% of all dungeons in the game because I knew that there was absolutely no reason to go into them).

When I reach max level (assuming they cap it like in FO) I want to be a max level B. A. who goes around owning everyone and everything except for in the areas that are designed for max level characters. If they don't implement a hard cap, then I still want to outpace the game content at a certain point and feel like a god walking amongst mere mortals, after all, I am the hero and should be heroic. I worked hard to get there and should be rewarded for pushing the envelope and delving into dangerous caves and ruins, not punished by having all my work mean nothing because all of those zombies noticed me leveling up and decided to start working out just in case I decided to enter their hole in the ground.

I agree with everything you said, that system would work well in Skyrim. I would still have some bosses leveled scaled at a minimum starting level but that system does make a lot of sense.

I'm playing Morrowind for the first time right now. It's an incredible good game and I can see why lots of you found Oblivion lacking in some departments (I loved Oblivion). But you don't even have to exploit the game to become a god. I'm lv.33 and have not gone out of my way to get there. I've done quest for mages, imperial cult and 5 or so main quest missions. Now I can kill anything with my sword and I'm a mage. That's just wrong.

Like 99% of you I found the level scaling in Oblivion the worst part of the game, but at least I was challenged all the way through.

I'm playing Fallout 3 right now (never done all dlc's) and love it to death. Mirlurks, Deathclaws, Giant radscorpions etc are all a bi4tch to face in a tight corner, no matter what level.

What we all seem to forget is that Bethesda never (for most of us) fails to impress (level scaling or not).

There you go the anwser... now just make the developers read this, and Skyrim is perfect...

@ mt_pelion,

Agreed.

Yeah, Im assuming that it will still be scaled (F3 style, but only...) maybe their will be some really hard baddy, and you try to kill him at level 5, and hes level 20, but you try to kill him at level 20, and he's level 30, just persay, that might be horrible, or somehing, but who knows....

Every different monster type and the individual NPCs should have set statistics. I like how dungeons will be somewhat a mix. The ranged scaling sounds like a good idea. What I highly disliked in the previous game was scaling boss monsters and NPCs. If you level up, you're weaker and weaker in comparison. It seemed like it was ideal to reach a certain level so you aquire the best leveled items and highest statistics at the lowest level possible. Around level 25 was ideal, and then it started to become harder and harder as you leveled up. Oblivion's player strength to enemy strength ratio sort of looks like this: [img]http://yabm.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/parabola.png[/img] When it should be this: [img]http://0.tqn.com/d/math/1/0/L/1/Untitled-1.gif[/img]

Whats the need of this thread necromancy?

Because necromancy is the easiest path to immortality, duh!

Would you prefer someone made a new thread without using the search function? no.

Forum vets are soo annoying!

First, the creatures you fight WERE a level scaling issue. For some spawns, the type of creature that appeared was determined by your level.
Second, the difficulty slider might work if you want the game easier. But once you're level 20 or so, it's only a tedium slider and it doesn't help at all with actually making the game harder.
The point isn't to swing your sword more times, the point is to have to think a little bit, occasionally use strategy, and sometimes be in danger. That's where balance is important, and where level scaling and the tedium slider fail.
It was mostly fixed with a dozen mods and a few thousand hours of volunteer time, though.

I actually cannot see an argument FOR scaling in the way oblivion or fallout scaled things.

Firstly, it completly rids the POINT of leveling- to improve and be able to complete challanges! Ok, lets say your a novice player. So you go into the kavach oblivion gate, decide it's too much, and head back out to level before returning. You do so... and return to find everything EVEN MORE DIFFICULT than before! There is no way to feel as if you have grown as a character because the challange always remains the same!

This works the other way- as an experienced player, what the hell is the POINT of leveling when your a god at level one anyway? There is no where you can go in oblivion where you'll think "oh god, what have I done, this is way above my level" so whats the INSENTIVE to level up?



Thirdly, it's a TOTTALY broken way of dealing with things. It makes it impossible to play anything but a warrior/warrior hybrid character at high levels. Lets say your a theif, you've completed the theives guild, made your riches by stealing and lying, and have rarely found the need to swing a sword. Suddenly going outside means your fighting bears that take half your health in one swoop. Playing the game in any reasonable way is impossible without leveling endurance and/or strength.



Finally, and this is the big one I would hope- the changes made do not make gameplay at all more enjoyable. All it means is that instead of a fairly interesting fight at level 3 or 4 between you and a couple of bandits, you end up with a back and fourth clobbering mach that drags onnnnnn and onnnn and onnnnnnn at level 20/25. The effects of being a badass should be "a haaa, I can take on 5 of you people without breaking a sweat!" instead its "a haaaa, fights that took me about a minuete at my very weakest now take me about half an hour to finish!" What kind of epic hero is that???? Kavatch would have melted into cinders if I had of tried the quest at level 25, because I'd be spending 10 minuets per deadra!



So overall we have a system that doesn't reward novices, doesn't challange experienced players, breaks the game for anything but warrior types, and makes the game dull and repetative. On the other hand, having a system that gives differnt locations differnt levels in itself fixes the first two of these things instantly- a novice who couldn't beat the first dragon on his first go can level, come back and find the fight much easier, and even experienced players will still feel the insentive to level up, to reach new and exciting locations. It also potentionally fixes the forth point- you can now make the game challanging by adding exciting new creatures or larger numbers of enimies, instead of having every bandit you come across being the Highlander.

As for the third point, I will admit to not being able to think of a clear solution, so I can't realy critize theirs.... gotta be some way to fix this problem though...

Om nom nom


PS this makes it sound like I hated oblivion- I really, really dont. It's my favorite game I've played. But this is one rather frustating flaw in a masterpiece....

Remove it. I know it won't be removed. So give me the option to disable it. Please.

-Option limited scaling. I want to often meet tougher and easier enemies but would like random spawns to have some scaling with some zones being kick your trash earlier while others weaker. Perhaps at low levels there could be a sprinkling of baddies and at higher levels there are more. Mixing the zones and the latter option could be tweaked.

I don't think you included enough options. I believe in a limited level scaling system. Essentially a setup in which you do get more and more powerful, but enemies don't suddenly become ultra-weak. The idea being, you're good and these guys aren't a big threat, but you also shouldn't be a God. Or at least, you shouldn't accidentally wander into Godhood like you did in Oblivion. I also believe in some higher level areas, places where if you aren't high level or extremely good, you get killed.

no cliff racers and I'll be happy

with the options you given us you clearly show us that you have no idea how level scaling works

I agree with the person that said level scaling is a necessary evil. I would rather have to sit through a boring beginning of easily defeating most enemies until they and I both become skilled enough to make the fights interesting enough than to have the fun struggled at the beginning while I'm weak and my enemies arent, yet by the time I become a high level I am taking out the entire world in a few hits. Speaking personally my characters are only at low levels for at most a few dozen hours before they get to the higher levels and I would hate for the entire rst of the time I have those files to be boring because I can one hit kill everyone but the main boss.

I was thinking earlier though, I am not a game developer ofcourse haha but I was wondering how hard it would be to implement a level scaling method that didn't even kick in until the player WAS high leveled? That way both parties could potentially be happy.

The creatures which scaled in Oblivion didn't always make sense, for one thing. Dremora Valkynaz, enemies you would expect to be vastly powerful, are that when you first encounter them. . . but they have a level limit. Creatures like Goblin Warlords on the other hand, don't. I would never expect ANY goblin to be more durable and dangerous than a princeling out of Oblivion. . . and yet that is what you got in that game. I think there should be VERY few enemies with matching unlimited scales on par with the players, and those few that might have it should be very rare and of the type that you would expect to have such powers. Over all, the scalling in Oblivion almost broke the leveling system. It made it virtually pointless to bother levelling up. If everything levels alongside you, you never really see the full benefit of your growth in a comparative manner.

I agree with this.

One of the most annoying things about (vanilla) Oblivion was the level scaling for me. I like having there be areas that I'm much more likely to be killed in. I know some people will say well then you aren't really "free" to do what you want and thats kind of the point of TES games right? But I think it just means I'll have to be less careless and not expect to be god-like throughout the entire game. Which never did happen since the monsters leveled up to 40 with you and took 3 minutes to kill..... which would be fine if they were exciting battles but by that point I was hard to kill too....

I still think there is a better balance to be found between creatures that level with you, and ones that are static.