What fails here is not the level scalling, but the initial/final hit points ratio. When there is too much hp gain per level, the damage system will fail at certain point. Of course there is not a perfect seting here; there will be people wanting people dying with a knife stab and people who consider that dying only for having been chewed by a dragon and then trwown to a lava pool is to harsh. A good compromise would be a hp per level slider, aplied to every actors including the player character.

Morrowind's - too easy above a certain level (as in I become a demigod above level 10-15)

Oblivion's - too hard above a certain level (as in I progressively fear things above level 10-15 more than I did at lower levels)

Fallout 3's - just perfect

Skyrim's - supposedly using a Fallout 3-esque system, hence it's perfect, for me

I really don't like level scaling, especially what was done in Oblivion. Morrowind and Fallout had similar types of level scaling, but it still took a lot out of it for me when strong enemies would randomly 'appear' for no reason other than you being stronger. What is the point of leveling up if everyone is going to be stronger because of it? Who needs a hero when the guards are 15 levels above you?

I prefer fallout 3's style of scaling, since it'd only scale to a degree. So if an area was set to scale levels 15 to 25, and you were level 5, all the creatures would still be level 15 and you'd get your backside handed too you, it wasn't like Oblivion where caves suppose to be filled with Brown Bears and Minotaurs would have been rats and wolves... it's better then no scaling since you can still over level but you don't have to hit the exact level and do the dungeon at the exact level to get the intended amount of challenge from it.

I'd love it if it was no scaling at all. But, on the map, different areas of the map should cater to different levels. e.g, Area A is for lvl 1-10, Area B is lvl 5-15, Area C is 10-20, etc.

I agree in totum.
Fallout 3 scaling was pretty damn good, hope to see the same in Skyrim.

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On one hand I like that the system will "try" to make the gameworld challenging to me.
On the other hand I dislike the idea in practice since it made FO3's gameworld very strange as most low levels enemies seemingly disappear from the game and are replaced with high level ones and mid level ones, which makes for a very incoherent gameworld.

Fallout: New Vegas had little to none level scaling, and what happened? People were complaining how it was too "linear" compared to Fallout 3, because they were killed by unleveled high-level bugs.

So yes, level-scaling gives a bit more freedom to the player to explore and there's no need to worry about which way you're "supposed to go". Of course, it shouldn't be like Oblivion's where everything was scaled. Fallout 3 was closer to Morrowind by having these levels set between a certain amount, but there are regions that are known for their dangers, like Old Olney will always have Deathclaws.

I don't mind some degree of level scaling, I just don't want it to be done poorly, which it was in Oblivion. I can see some benefits for level scaling in an open world game, but the way it was handled in Oblivion hurt the believability of the world as powerful enemies and items never spawned until high levels and low level ones became unrealistically rare than, it made leveling less satisfying as once you got more powerful, all you're enemies did too, it also made the whole Daedric invasion seem rather unthreatening as you could stop it at level 2, at which point it mostly consisted of stunted scamps and clannfear runts. Finally, it made finding high level items less satisfying as they became too common at high levels, you never got the feeling that you made a really great discovery when you found a piece of Daedric armor or something because you could have found it in any dungeon. I'd say that Morrowind was better in this regard, though it was not without its problems, the main one being that there was really nothing in the game that could challenge you after a certain point. Now, not every encounter needs to be an epic fight, of course, and when I reach a high level, I do want to feel like I've become stronger, which means some enemies should become less challenging, but when I can't find a challenge anywhere in the game at all, it becomes boring, however, adding in some high level encounters tha can challenge even the most powerful characters or just increasing the maximum level of leveled enemies in some places would have done a lot to help with this. And in any case, I consider it to be a less serious problem than the ones that exist with Oblivion's level scaling as it only became apparent at high levels, while Oblivion's system had problems at every level.

In conclusion, I have no problems with level scaling in itself, I just have problems with the way I've seen it implemented in some games.



I think the abuse of invisible walls also had something to do with that. It kind of ruins the feel of an "open world" when you constantly find yourself unable to go in a direction that you clearly should be able to proceed in because the developers put an invisible barrier there to make you go a different route. And I'm not talking about invisible barriers on the borders of the map there, New Vegas actually put visible barriers around most of its borders, it's when there's a hill that I clearly should be able to climb but I can't because of an unwanted, unneeded and unseen barrier blocking my passage that I get annoyed.

See, I didn't really notice that nearly as much as I noticed all the times I wandered off the "One True Path" and got my face ripped off by the un-leveled mobs.

I hated Oblivion's system. New Vegas was okay. I enjoyed running into a deathclaw toward the beginning. It one shotted me, or two. Love it.

I would like the enemies to scale with you character, but this time gradually scale less and less the higher your level so that once you hit a certain level the enemies eventually stop scaling all together.
/my opinion

Screw you level scaling!!!!!!! A true devahkiin warrior goes through blood, sweat and tears before he is skilled enough for the win. At the start of the game It should be difficult to kill a goblin. The only way to ease the challenge should be to have hard challenges behind your back. And there must always be a harder challenge. Bring it Bethesda I want a no cheating/level scaling challenge!

This is the answer. This is why OB was impossible for me to play in any length. I could never tailor my character to the fight.

I agree entirely with you, in oblivion i always installed a mod to change the leveled system.

Best regards to everybody

I never have, and never will, understand the absolute camps.

Mass amounts of scaling ruins an RPG. Running into a common bandit wearing a full set of enchanted max type armor who can use highly-skilled attacks utterly shatters any sense of immersion in an RPG. So does running into a pitiful little level 2 Dragon or demon or what have you.

No scaling at all ruins an open-world game. Level-gated content puts up 'invisible walls' that restrict you from content. Having to trudge through a cave filled to the brim with level 1 diseased rats at level 30 just because you missed a quest is not fun- for most people. Neither is constantly getting destroyed by, again, a bunch of common bandits.

TES is not a shooter. TES is not a linear game.

Honestly though, the answer is painfully simple. And I could swear I've seen it implemented somewhere before. All enemies scale within a set level range. For example, all Rats are leveled between 1 and 5, all bandits are level 2-7, all Liches are level 15-30, all dragons are level 40-60. And they scale within those bounds appropriately, with some amount of randomness. So a Rat can't be higher than level 5, meaning they quickly present little threat. However, being rats, they never out-level you. They scale at random to be no more than the players level, and no less than two levels below the player's level or their own cap. So at level 3 you can run into level 1 rats, level 2 rats, and level 3 rats, and at level 20 you will usually run into level 5 rats, though you can also run into level 3 and 4 rats. On the other hand dragons would maintain at least a, let's go with the quoted post and say 10 level advantage over the player, but they can't be lower than level 40. So at level 5 if you run afoul of a dragon, you're pretty much screwed, as it's level 40. While at level 45 they still pose a challenge as they will be about level 55- let's say +/- 2 levels.

The other bit would be making the higher leveled creatures rarer when the player is of a lower level, and giving the player warning if possible. So let's say that, for example, there's a cave on this mountain outside the town you're in. The townsfolk will talk about how it's a dragon lair, and how dangerous it would be for your meager level 6 warrior to go in there. Now, being level 6 there won't be a level 50 dragon swooping down to the middle of town to snipe you (which will happen in this town when you're level 40). But hey, if you choose to go check out the cave, you can. Or maybe you hit the cave before the town and no one has been able to warn you yet. Well, if you're lucky you might still be able to run out of there with your life. The other end would be that at, say, level 25, bandit's aren't going to be regularly trying to jump you on the roads. They'll still be in camps or outside ruins though. Also quests should generally scale to your level, with some amount of difficulty based on the 'level' of the quest- so becoming Champion of the Kill Things Guild should be much harder than say, becoming the Intern for the Bake Pies Guild.

Daggerfall did level scaling well.

Oblivion just overdid it. Had I only played the game once, I think level scaling would have seemed appropriate, but the second and third time you play it wears off. I think it was created with the assumption that people were only going to play the game once.

No scaling ... i want to enter a cave and get my butt kicked then go back when im stronger and more well prepared and beat it. It would bring a challange and more sense of satisfaction for reaching the end of a dungeon. Imagine if there is high tier equipment in one area but the enemies are always level 30... you just are not going to waltz in and get it at level 5 so there is more incentive to level up and go back later. Boring if every fight is scaled to my level

A lot of people want no scaling at all, but wouldn't that be way too easy? After you reached about lvl 25-35 in MW nothing could stand in your way. In general sense OB was horrible in scaling, but they kept it from becoming too easy. Hopefully they have some enemies(other than dragons, maybe a powerfull type of dremora) that always will be a challenge, but that they are rare and only appear in a boss-lvl critter list.
I hope that different types of enemies have different scaling though. Example: bandits could scale from lvl 1-15, guards from lvl 20-30, dremora from lvl 35-45 and dremora lords could be lvl 50. That is just an example though.
Edit: see #91 for more details on how scaling should be done in my opinion.

Scaling with chance of high/low.

I don't get what it is that people have against level scaling. I like it. A lot of people like to complain that it was done poorly in Oblivion and that when your level is in the teens it's really difficult, but all you have to do to rectify that is turn down the difficulty a bit (on the 360 it's one click of the left bumper button and I'm good to go my whole way through the teen levels).

I like level scaling, but I also like to have things changed up and in some cases it makes sense to have a very strong enemy you just can't defeat until you're strong enough.

Every game I've ever played had some point in the game where the difficulty level spiked dramatically. It's no different with Oblivion except that you actually have the option of turning down the difficulty which nobody seems to want to do. Probably because, to them, it's just easier to complain about it. :shrug:

So. Scaling with a chance of higher or lower power enemy. I'd also like to see some static leveled enemies (dragons for instance?)

I have faith that Bethesda will do what's right and leave level scaling in.

The real problem with Oblivion's level scaling was item scaling. I'm glad that they've chosen to tone down level scaling in Skyrim.

Your poll, OP, doesn't accurately reflect all possibilities for level scaling. Indeed, it's too narrow.

Fallout 3 got it right. Oblivion got it wrong. Morrowind got it right.

Nuff said.

Nothings wrong with level scaling. it's being stuck in a world with only 3 types of creatures that kills the fun. The best part is a good mix, where you can roam the world and run into pretty much anything.

I can't believe you're actually defending Oblivion's system though. You enjoyed fighting timber wolves rats and goblins for half of the game?

I have never played Fallout 3 or NV. So when i first heard that the level (and item?) scaling will be more like it, i was confused. But then someone told me that it has areas that are on diffrent levels for example: The starting area would be scaled on level 1 but then 7000 steps would be closer to 15-25.
I was Amazed on they finally got it right

looks like 51% of the voters think that scaling is wrong I hope Beth takes a note on this . There is no such thing as scaling done right and dungeons locking to your level is a bad idea only second to levelled loot .