Small tweaks, including a return to major and minor skills, but keeping the overall system intact.

I would vastly prefer something similar to Daggerfall's system. You still learned by use in Daggerfall, but there were no attribute multipliers. When you leveled up from skill use, you were given 4-6 points to spend on whatever stats (not skills, just stats) you wanted. I want something like that, but with a static amount of points awarded per level. I hate attribute multpliers.

i think that your should get rid of multipliers, their useless and require planning of your character, which takes the lifelikeness out, and i think that, like in oblivion where training dummies would be set up, you could actually train with them, but your skills would raise at a slower rate,

KEEP THE LEVELS IN, any person with OCD would kill an unlike thinker that wan'ts levels out, 3/4 people that play oblivion are nerds, and 7/8 nerds have OCD, many deaths would occur.

furthermore, i strongly suggest that you take the (i'm not sure what to call it) but where the animals and creatures got stronger at about the same rate you do, makes it unrealistic,

(I. E.) if you attempt to attack a common wolf, and it kills you, you find yourself training so that you can kill it, but as you come back to attack it you find that it is just as strong as you are, again, i ended up tweaking the difficulty scale to make up for this problem.

The Oblivion system IS broken.

Click http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveling, and scroll down to "The Leveling Problem", read it.

Bethsda should learn what GCD is, and implement it. Oblivion had nGCD, I don't want to have to wait for Modders to bring that amazing system to skyrim.
For thos eunfortunate to never had used that mod. It makes it so oyur attributes and such go up, when a skill increases. Theres no more efficient leveling bull, if you level up Blunt weapons enough, you should get stronger on the spot, not by magically sleeping in a bed. Nothing broke Immersion more to me, than having to sleep to become a bit stronger.

Yup. I made a suggestion stating essentially that, way back in the TESV Ideas and Suggestions thread when it was still in the single digits (it swelled dramatically, eventually finishing at... 188 threads or so?) Your skills already have governing attributes, so if there are an equal number of skills per attribute, you can use your skills to raise your attributes in a linked fashion. Say... For every 4 skill level increases associated with Strength, you get 1 point of Strength.

Your race, class, major, minor, and even your birthsign could all affect not just the starting skill and attribute levels, but also the speed at which they level up.

(I actually went even further, by tying a skill to multiple attributes... It was slightly more complicated and wouldn't please some people if it was obvious, but since this sort of leveling happens behind the scenes, why shouldn't Marksman be tied 20% to Strength, 20% to Endurance, and 60% to Agility? It's more realistic than single governing attributes!)

Even if the "pick your attributes" method of leveling is eliminated in favor of skill-tied attribute leveling, actual numbered levels will still be necessary. I can't foresee Beth getting rid of leveled enemies entirely, because it does have its uses when done wisely (as in, not nearly to the extreme that Oblivion did). Therefore, the game engine will need to know your level, even if it's behind the scenes. Besides, like people said, RPGers in general like to know their level, even if the number is meaningless.

Well yeah, but that's more the level scaling that was the problem then the leveling system itself. I guess you can call them one and the same, but if the level scaling was removed the issue would go away.

Current leveling system has its flaws that result in players' power gaming in order to become stronger in low levels, repeating minimal things, and repeated use of skills that one did not chose as primary skills and so on...

In these http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1144150-character-development-and-you http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1107940-perks-they-can-make-each-play-through-a-unique-experience I have tried to suggest a leveling system that is both fun and prevents power gaming and if combined with what I suggested in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1148814-remove-extensive-level-scaling-in-skyrim-part-2/page__view__findpost__p__16797690 post and continued in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1148458-remove-level-scaling-in-skyrim/page__view__findpost__p__16794258 post for level scaling of monsters and items, can completely eliminate the need for power gaming and would result in a clean and focused gaming experience for any role player without the need to power game.


In Oblivion I did not select the armor, blade and block skills as primary skills, then I went inside a sewer and found some rats in there and drank a long lasting, but low power health regen like those found in fighter guilds of an OOO game, then put some weight on keyboard block key and went away to drink a coffee or any other jobs needed in RL.

I did the same thing by combining auto-moving while sneaking around a place that some people were near. but at the other side of a wall that could not see me, and at the same time having drunk a long effect but weak mana potion like the ones found in mage guilds of an OOO game, and selecting a low power buff spell, and puting a weight on the cast key, and lean back to read a book and occasionally looking back to see if I needed to drink another potion and so on...

Not to mention that I jumped around whenever I wanted to walk a distance.

But the combined effect of those two threads and the other post would prevent the need to power game in most of those occasion, except for the jumping around which currently I do not know how to prevent.

As almost everyone has said:

yes to attributes affecting stats
yes to level up through skill use
NO to the +5 system,

pretty much anything that lets us earn our stats without handicapping me for happening to do a crapload of alchemy one level and getting the next solely on combat-related skills would probably be a step up, honestly. Current system says "gee, you worked so hard on your alchemy out of fun or necessity, or simple curiosity. Now most of that means nothing because you leveled"

This is my vote. I was one of those players who (after my first horrible character) made sure I did the min/max efficient leveling approach getting +5 in my attributes every level until maxed. It was asinine in retrospect, but I couldn't bear to play any other way knowing that I could do it by constructing this bass-ackwards major/minor skill set (that had nothing to do with my character's "class") and training via repetition not related to actually playing the game.

1. Get rid of modifiers
2. Choose a set of custom skills or a premade class
3. Level by using those associated skills
4. Distribute a set number of points awarded each level into the attributes you feel need boosting.
5. Play the game

You could still have a 5 point cap (or whatever) in a given attribute each level to avoid packing 15 points in Endurance for example. Luck could remain at +1 only per level.

An xp system with skill and attribute points to spend on lvl up would be an immense gain. It's just boring that repetition of menial tasks can make you a superhero. Fanatsy literature is not excatly full of stories of a mage becoming an archmage by casting a small flame incantation for two years repeatedly alone in his chamber...

Try Fallout 3 or NV, and explain to me why it's possible to get better at Energy Weapons without having ever SEEN one. That's the counter-argument, and one which I've never seen convincingly countered.

i disagree with you completely

uhhhh that's exactly how a mage would become more Powerful.... by PRACTICING. It makes less sense for that mage to kill a few enemies with a sword and all of a sudden he's more proficient in magic.

That's how it works in real life as well I don't use a hammer for a few hours and suddenly become a better cook

They need to get rid of the multipliers and implement a system that doesn't punish natural play. I don't really care that much how they do it, but my suggestion is a refinement of the "skills directly increase attributes" system.

In Morrowind and Oblivion when you use a skill you get skill experience and when you get enough experience in a skill it increases by 1. I propose that in addition to getting skill experience you also get attribute experience for the governing attribute of the skill you used and when you've gathered enough of it the attribute increses by 1.

I believe this is the most elegant and natural way of handling attribute increases. It also has the benefit that how fast an attribute increases is based purely on how often you use any skill governed by it and not on how many different skills governed by it you use. If you use only Blunt weapons or if you alternate between Blunt and Blade, your Strength will increase at the same rate. That's because how much Strength exp you need to improve your Strength depends on how high it is, and not on how high the skills are.

Another thing is that if you max out a skill before maxing out it's governing attribute, you can still keep on using that skill to increase the attribute further. For example if you have 90 Strength and 100 Blunt Weapons you still get Strength exp whenever you hit something with a Warhammer so you're not forced to switch to a sword in order to keep improving your Strength.

If they want to keep levels they can then make them based on attribute increases. For example, characters start at level 0 with an average attribute value of 50. Then for every 10 attribute increases you get a level which results in a max level of 40. I would also like it very much if they used level only for the purpose of scaling the game. I'd actually prefer scaling by location instead of scaling by player level, but I sincerely doubt they'll go for that. Anyway, level shouldn't be used in Health calculation. Instead Health should simply be based on stats just like Magicka and Fatigue already are. Something like 2x Endurance would be fine. Maybe slap a fixed base value over that so player's don't automatically die if they get their Endurance drained to 0. Just make it so it isn't level based.

The way GCD and nGCD did it in MW and OB, respectively, is how leveling up should be done.

I like this solution, is clean and simple, and gets rid of most problems. Wasn't Daggerfall leveling somewhat like this?

Yeah, every time your major and minor increased to a certain level, you were given 4-6 attribute points (at random) to freely put it wherever you want.

But I prefer GCD's version, which is, seamless leveling, and when you increase skills, it also increases attributes (with the main stat being what will most often be increased)
--Basic idea, the specifics are more complex of how it's handled.

The problem with the system in morrowind and obilivion is that I start out always thinking that I'm just going to play causually, try do immerse myself in the world but it always ends up me having spreadsheets and planning my leveling to get the most optimal stats and that takes out much fun for me...

Awarding a given set of points would also get rid of the whole max every stat race, which I get some people like, but its kind of out there. You would have to use your points in your most useful attributes depending on your class, and there would be a place for specialized characters.

Ive never used any custom leveling mod, but if its been implemented and people like the way it works, could be something to check out. Nevertheless, the current system needs to be tweaked somehow, the current iteration is pretty horrible.

+1

Also, what I disliked the most about leveling in MW and OB: The higher your major/minor skills after char creation, the lower your maximum level. Race and birthsign bonuses should be on top of the 100 point limit.

Bring back minor skills!! :brokencomputer:

Well, I haven't played Morrowind or Oblivion without GCD / nGCD for a long while, but I remember the pains of the original leveling system quite well.

"This time, I want 5 points in endurance, so I better go and grind Block with a mudcrab now!"
"And now for speed. I better go to Olav's Tap and Track and so some Acrobatics on that one bed now."

It was horrible, absolutely not immersive, and a pain in the rear. And the way the hitpoints were calculated basically made the first few levels identical for everyone ("go train block with a mudcrab"), unless I was sure that I just didn't care that my character would svck at about level 17 if I wouldn't.


It should definitely be tweaked. Or, well, I'll just use the next generation of the GCD type of mods.

When I heard 'class perks' I was instantly opposed "that's too DnD" and hearing many of your (scattered) suggestions I thought you (Sphagne) should be tarred and feathered. But after thoroughly reviewing your posts in your linked threads (I've scanned them several times, but only now been able to read them properly) I think your system is superior to previous TES games. However, I still would do some things differently.
For one, I always custom class, even if I'm making a class similar to a pre-made class. (there is always 'something' wrong with them even if its just to trade block for armorer. I have hardly even LOOKED at pre-mades since Daggerfall.) And regardless of how you tweak Pre-gen classes for flexibility, I feel this could tie my hands.
Furthermore, perks, IMO, detract from the power of the idea of skills based leveling. If your a master of the skill, it follows that you should be able to achieve abilities a priori as previous masters have done before you. If you are competent as a swordsman, it follows that you would know to target the head, and it follows that you would know how to swing a sword. Therefore, why would you need to pay a teacher to tell you how to do a head chop? If my mage CAN'T eventually figure out how to raise the dead then how did the first necromancer figure it out. (Mannimarco was killed by the player, how can Mannimarco be THAT much more powerful than I can ever be? Wait, was he the first necy or did he just do it better? *goes back to the lore books*)

Secondly, I am not opposed to area based level scaling. However, I must inform everyone that level based scaling will inevitably force players forward from the 'pretty' noob-section to the scarier leet-section. part of the value of the game is the environment and some may tire of living in one environment as opposed to another.
a perk of oblivion was that you could enjoy any part of the country just as well. albeit, that scaling was inferior to Morrowind's. In Morrowind you just stay away from the deadric shrines and you'll be fine, you could still go anywhere. DF's was of course more in line with OB's scaling.
Another thing to consider about this is that it may add to the replay value of the game. If your forced to leave or get bored with your warrior in the first play, your thief may enjoy the dungeons your warrior didn't have the time to see. I'm on the fence here; I'm just pointing things out.


It is imperative that Bethesda implements this concept, or allows room for this in the Construction editor. I cannot overstate my anticipation of this improvement.

I am in support of abolishing the leveling system. A "level" could be present in the form of an arbitrary number based on total skill advances (major/minor skills or whatever system they want). In other words, "your stats determine your level" not "your level determines your stats". This number could be hidden from the player (optional?) to smooth over the immersion. I like Absinthe's idea of HP=100+En (or w/e in place of 100). I might add another variable like say HP=100+N(En) where N could be .75-1.50 depending on character generation 'perks' (similar to DF HP/Lvl slider) or a birth sign.

I am in support of abolishing the HP system. and would like to see MP/fatigue merged. Hp was a gauge of character skills/ endurance/ defence fatigue that old games used to show the 'progress' of a fight. Nowadays we have things like skills, endurance, fatigue and other mechanics (Player skill in more arcade-style games *cough* Oblivion *cough*) to show the state of a fight. namely, I would like to see locational damage be properly implemented now that physics isn't just a class that smart people take in college. People have limbs, a trunk, a skeleton, AND organs: hit-boxes, IMO, aren't enough anymore. Grazing headshots, regardless of power, should only be superficial wounds. Cerebral cortex-shots = Ded.
MP should equate Fatigue. MP was a system to prevent spamming potentially unbalancing spells. It was Role Played as the mental endurance to perform very stressful mental abilities. Fatigue was a system to ... justify sleeping as a game mechanic? Now it is so a fighter cant spam potentially unbalancing fighting techniques (or, based on opinion and more accurately, to show the real world limits of a human being in a stressful situation). Why can my spellsword CAST until he is exhausted and then FIGHT until he is exhausted. Why can my exhausted paladin heal himself of potentially deadly toxins after he barely manages to strangle an assassin that caught him off guard.

Also, I am in support of abolishing the Fed. (oops sry, unrelated)


I don't believe that cheating should be considered an issue. Anyone can use the console. I know 10-yr-olds that use the console for god mode. How many mods are there that that add Uber items? If your worried that your going to be pwnd by hackers, take a breath.... its single player... they will only ruin their own experience. (unless they have multi-player in skyrim?) how many people can call themselves fans of TES that don't understand role playing well enough to cripple the part of their mind that recognizes or ignores a blatant exploit. There shouldn't be Morrowind-enchanting-or-alchemy level exploits, but lets not punish the honest folks for the actions of the pirates. That said, I like the "keen senses" idea, as long as not all creatures should have them. High level humans should not have better smelling or hearing than low level humans (tho, better attention to detail makes sense.)

That was supposed to be a quick yes/ no response. LAFF. As soon as I commit to make a response; I commit to write a book, it seems.

Well, while I'm wasting everyone precious "waste-time-speculating-on-a-game-that's-prolly-too-far-developed-to-be-changed-significantly" time I'd like to address Max caps as well. An orc is naturally strong, a breton is not. Does it make since that the highest strength an orc can aspire to is the same as a breton's? of course a breton works harder... That's not really the issue tho let me start again. Does it make sense that I can spend every moment of my life devoted to study and never atrophy? If there was a natural decay to skills and attributes (which should be tied to skills) then there would be a natural limit to how strong a person is. There's only 24 hrs in a day, you can only train so much. At some point skill increases would be so slow, they would be outpaced by decay. Furthermore, your warrior could decide to become a wizard. Why cant a body builder learn to be a cook. Sure he would shrivel (look at Arnold Schwarzenegger the Terminator, then at Arnold the goovanator.) there would be jacks-of-all-trades but no master-of-all-trades. This is only possible if levels are changed, as many people here seem to want, since in Ob skill decreases lead to unlimited leveling. It would probably frustrate many people (especially the less than hardcoe crowd). And it would punish you for taking a casual stroll through the forest. But the role playing and realism could add a lot.