Maybe it could be avoided by having a pool of level-appropriate items that scaled quests could draw from randomly, so one quest could give you the Stupid Amulet at level 1 or the Power Sword at level 20. If you got the Stupid Amulet, the Power sword would still be available from a different quest later.

I quote the link: "wherein a player exploits the ability to gain a powerful item or weapon early in the game."

In fact a lot there states things such as abusing a game feature, saving/loading continuously before a certain fight hoping for a better loot drop, and it mentions sequence breaking. Now of course all this may be just words and it comes down to opinions, but it is just that in various forms, exploiting. I see it as exploiting even if you don't. Just dumping this list here doesn't necessarily make it right for every player to support it. Ok sure if there's a tough enemy in the game then yes, maybe a reward, but why a super reward?. Look at that Lich from Baldur's Gate 2, tough, maybe more than the end boss. But you expect a reward way above yourself. Why? I defeated an enemy that was incredibly more powerful, doesn't mean I should now get a weapon that makes me fly through the next quarter or so of the game. There goes the fun. But again, only my opinion.

And I apologize for my imprudence over the sig comment. The effrontery.

I'm hoping for some awesome loot in some mountain nook and cranny.

Try to avoid it as much as possible :unsure:

Exactly what I would like and wanted ever since I figured out how lame the original system was

exploiting is only possible through bad design (i.e. 10 diff ways to kill umbra at lvl 1). but, if it's designed well and one can still beat it...is that an exploit? or simply a more adventurous gamer? whether people want to admit it or not, some are better at games than others. some want an 'easy cake walk everything is my level' experience while others (i would be in this group :tongue: ) want a truly adventurous experience, a real challenge. with no challenge, why play?

I like a challenge too, but by getting that powerful item early on, then the challenge is gone is it not? That's what we were discussing. Not whether or not we are more adventurous gamers. Bring on difficult enemies I say, but don't necessarily give me a super weapon just because I managed to defeat him.

we have to agree to disagree then. the more challenge there is in overcoming something the more sense of accomplishment there is, the more it makes you sit back and say Wow! that was awesome! It makes me wonder what's next. It makes me explore even more. It doesn't mean I'm disappointed when I come across an 'easier' quest with a lower reward. I simply look forward to the next cave/dungeon thinking maybe there will be something epic in this one.

If there isn't the sense of accomplishment or adventuring early on, nothing epic to find, what's the point? Where's the fun? Why am I out exploring other than to find epic loot? If all if find is mediocre junk my level thanks to level scaling/loot scaling I don't get that same feeling of accomplishment because there's no need to explore early.

I liked how morrowind handled it. Every weapon had the same stats no matter what level you were, but if you tried getting chrysamere at level 5 you'd get your s**t punched in by frost atronachs.

Well I really liked the way the Knights of the Nine did the armor. When you get it the armor levels to your level, but if you leveled up, and put the armor on the armor stand it rechecked your level and leveled up to your level. If all leveled items did this on their own it would be great. You could say that due to your greater experience and better abilities, etc., etc. you can now use more of the items potential.

You can tell from this list: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveled_Items

there are a lot of items that level.

There are the leveled stats for the item in question on the first post: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Blackwater_Blade#Leveled_Statistics

The Knight of the Nine item upgrade is just used to repair what item-levelling broke.

If the items were never levelled to begin with, there would be no need to increase the item's level later on.

I hated leveled loot, to me it was the same as level-scaling monsters. I want to be rewarded with crappy stuff for a really easy quest, but if I do a dungeon far above my level, I want to get a weapon that breaks the game and makes it way too easy for the next 3 levels. I want loot to be scaled to monster level, not my level.

If they don't increase the amount of placed statics this time around, I doubt I will buy this game. Honestly, Oblivion was a complete waste of space. There was no reason to go exploring for loot because there was NOTHING worth finding. I don't mind having some leveled loot, but it should NOT be 99% leveled loot + some Daedric artifacts. That was terrible design in OB. The game NEEDS some static challenges that are designed to be difficult. Tackling them at a lower level, even though they are very difficult, should reward the player. If it does not, or this type of content is not in the game, count me out! I will not purchase.

Having a huge open world, where one can go wherever they want makes no sense when the world is all scaled and leveled and void of unique qualities. It was such a joke in OB. It was terrible! Down right terrible. Please, for the love of god, have some static locations like in Morrowind and like the Daggerfall mainquest dungeons, etc. If the entire world has too much randomness/scaling/leveled BS, then an intelligent player will realize this and it makes the game very difficult to want to play.

The problem with doing it non-levelled, though, is that then it produces the same effect but in the opposite manner.

Levelled: I choose to do nothing because I get bs at the beginning.

Non-levelled: I can't do anything because at the beginning I get bs'd.

And not being able to is a very different basket of fruits to choosing not to. Not being able to makes you sell the game on; choosing not to, on the other hand, you make that call, there's nothing to complain about if you impose the restriction.

All that said, level-scaling did do a lot of things I wouldn't miss. My only worry is that if they roll it back too much then every dungeon for the first ten levels is going to be nails, and I don't want every dungeon near the starting area to be easy. I grew out of the "farther from home" scale a long time ago.

If they can find the right balance then I'm all for a rollback, but if not then I'd rather not going into a nearby dungeon was my call, not simply a necessity because of the monsters inside. There's no way it'll take every NPC, quest and dungeon to see me to a high enough level for the loot to be worth it.

As for the sense of accomplishment for loot, I have a simple solution. Don't give weapons or armour. Give an expensive miscellaneous item that can be sold for a lot of money, which can then be used to buy weapons or armour. Besides is that not the point of hunting for "treasure"? To sell it to a collector and get rich so as to buy what you want?

Better yet, make said treasures guarded by puzzles instead of monsters (and both sometimes), and make the more expensive treasures guarded by more complex puzzles, and maybe a "boss" of sorts. That way, there won't be like fifteen different strategies to get [powerful weapon or armour] very early on in the game through the use of a lot of potions and being good at the lockpicking minigame (a la Castle Bruma Akaviri Katanas), as obtaining those specifically will still be based on availability, and if you're lucky, you'll pick up some remaining components along the way.

well an easy way to deal with this is have no level loot. Npc and other creates u should have to kill should be wearing all sorts of lvl armors and wield difrent swords from the start of the game. which makes some easier to kill then others. so its fair you should be able to get all the loot but; you should not be able to equip certain armors and weapons untill ur higher lvled so that you dont become overpowered. (or equip items depending on ur skill lvl. ex equip a elvish sword if ur blade is a certain lvl.)

i think they mentioned leveling will be similar to that of fallout 3

they could make it to where the items stats is based on the quest difficulty, so that way u get the best weps later on in the game

I hope it won't be, I didn't like either how if you were good with a sword that axes didn't sell for much gold and vise versa. They didn't sell for much, but you had to spend a lot of gold to get one. bleh...

I say it is necessary
if it didnt exist the game would be like crap but if it was in too much it would be like crap

Daggerfall did have it, although it was a well hidden secret for quite awhile. The Rusty Ogre Lodge. If you saved your game on the top floor where the chests were, and then you loaded that game, it stocked the chests with Daedric Weapons of all sorts. Whenever you loaded in there, it restocked the chests. A Lvl 1 char fresh from Privateer's Hold could acquire every type of Daedric Weapon there, and sell all the spares for millions of gold. A Lvl 1 character with a Daedric Dai-Katana was just ridiculous, 1 shotting just about everything he came across until around Lvl 15+.

I don't think it really matters to be honest. I ended up with a chest in my house with practically every single reward I ever received in it, which I hoarded because I didn't want to sell it, and I didn't want to use it.

I think enchanted wearable items should level, purely because you couldn't make very powerful custom enchanted items compared to what was available. But weapons? Nah.

The Oblivion reward system was just wrong. The Escutcheon of Chorrol is a good example. Do the quest at level 1 and it reflects 10% damage. At level 25 you'll get a shield that reflects 35% damage - which is useful late game, whereas the early acquired Escutcheon isn't (you can find better random loot by then). I'd rather the developers added quests with commensurate rewards than scaling the reward to your level. So at level 1 it would be possible to get the high level shield - it's placed in the game world - but it would involve fighting your way past uber-enemies that, in practice, would be impossible (or extraordinarily difficult) for the untrained character. Instead you can go and get a low-level shield from a senile old lady! Skill = reward, not level.

The idea that you can do any quest at any level is the problem - scaled quests. There should be some things that a fresh out of jail idiot shouldn't even attempt, and the quest giver should tell you that; like the guy in FO:NV who says you look too wimpy to tackle a deathclaw if you say you'll clear the quarry at level one.

Leveled loot is terrible.

Random loot should be leveled, but not scaled to player level, but the area's danger level.

Or even better, the random monsters should be scaled to the AREA's danger level but a little bit randomized after that, and they should be themed like the spawn point's theme, and their carried loot should be scaled to their own calculated level.

The Area's danger level should gradually vary around the world over the geographical topology of the land and the dungeon deepness.

The funny thing is, this is how old school RPG games did for their level design, for decades. It worked very well to this day.

I don't care how many times Bethesda insist that they need level scaling of anything to the player level, or that "they did it before in Daggerfall". It is purely done for convenience, not for making a better game. Without level-scaling to the player, Bethesda would actually have to put more thought into considering what monsters and items appear in what location. Level scaling was used in Daggerfall to create procedurally generated content. It was done to make things EASIER for the programmers, as Daggerfall was too large to build by hand.

Bethesda can tell me that they want level scaling because they can't be bothered to do things properly. But I would never believe for a second that level scaling is suppose to make a better game.