i have logged countless hours in skyrim leveling different characters and i've given alot of thought to the way you level in the game. as far as i'm concerned the leveling, besides the bugs is the only thing that keeps the game from being perfect. i actually had a suggestion for the next Elder Scrolls game. i know that elder scrolls games have never had the traditional XP system and i like the skill trees and having too master the different skills but its not the most natural way too level, in skyrim specifically you have too level up skill after skill to get the perks to fill out one additional skill tree this can be quite tedious. after playing fallout 4 i had the idea why not a combination of XP and skills tree's, that way you still need too use a skill to be proficient in it but you can still level when exploring caves and doing quests, so basically just to be clear you would get xp from killing enemies completing quests and performing other actions but the perks you get cant be spent unless you've leveled the skill you want to spend them on. i really think this is the most organic way too approach this. just a suggestion if you have any comments about the leveling please feel free to leave one

I'm ok with the levelling up system, except after level 40 it's a real chore to find ways of filling the levelling gauge (at least for me it is).

Simply removing perquisites would to a lot to make the perk system more tolerable, in my opinion.

Are you talking about the minimum skill level prerequisites, or the fact that you have to take some perks before moving up to others up the tree?

I think it's great in conjunction with Perk Extravaganza and Third Era Attributes. Every race now have their own unique perks, for example.

well the soft cap was kinda annoying but i'm not talking about what is most easiest with legendary i could keep leveling my illusion and be level 100 in like a day, i'm talking about whats most organic what happens naturally, think about it you level up doing what you always do exploring and you become proficient in what you use and as for a level cap i don't want to even debate it here

Well, shoot, I typed that much too fast. What I meant to write was "perk prerequisites." I not only got the meaning wrong but I also managed to use the wrong word (perquisite) as well. *sigh* See, kids, this is why you should never ever post just minutes before you have eaten lunch.

Thank you for catching that.

But that's effectively how it works already. If I get XP for killing enemies with a one handed weapon and destruction magic, then those skills increase and with the skill prerequisites, I can't dump all of those perk points into say, alchemy. Yeah, you can perk the first level of of skills, but after that, if your skill isn't high enough you can't spend perks in that skill tree.

Edit: fixed typo

This is what I was thinking.

However, I do have discontent for perk trees. I shouldn't have to spend 3 perks to get to the one I want. If my character wants to be proficient in smithing ebony gear, then he/she should not be forced to take perks in Dwarven or Orchish.

It doesn't make sense, anyway. The ability to work with dwarven metal has no influence on working with ebony.

Well, come to that SC.....how does knocking out a few silver jewellery trinkets suddenly qualify your skill to perk up in smithing a specialised metal bow or Greatsword.....it's all nonsense. However, its clear what Beth is trying to do here. They are saying that in order to smith Better stronger and more valuable weapons......you must first cut your teeth on the easier stuff.

Yeah make it even more casual and wimpy what's the problem with having to do something to become good?

What's the point of requiring a player to take the Fists of Steel perk in order to work your way up to Conditioning?

Why should an archer have to take Backstab, in the Sneak tree, in order to get to Deadly Aim?

I guess I have to enter this fray....

True, some of the choices along the trees don't make a whole lot of sense. But by and large, the "use a skill" method of gaining levels appeals to me FAR more than the "kill monsters and bad guys for xp" system.

Are there some serious anomalous choices in the trees? Yes. glargg pointed out a couple in his post just above. But for me at least, this is a better system than anything else I've ever found. I tweak things to fit whichever toon I'm playing at a given moment, but really, there's nothing wrong from my point of view, with basing a "level up" on "what have I learned".

Sure. I think the problem is with the prerequisite "tree," where you can't select a character-appropriate perk without first spending a perk point on a completely inappropriate perk (even though you otherwise qualify for it.)

The reason for this, I think, is that Bethesda fell in love with their little "constellation" perk trees, and had to arrange the perks to fit the pictures, even when it didn't make sense.

The other thing that's wrong with the perk system is that most of them aren't "perks" at all. They are percentage rises in skill effect. And this works completely against the TES concept of raising skill effectiveness through use, because you may have leveled up to earn the perk point you spent on Light Armor by brewing a bunch of potions.

There's nothing "hardcoe" and "macho" (or whatever the opposite of the idiotic terms "casual" and 'wimpy" are) about having to learn to craft Dwarven before one can learn to craft Orcish. That is what I call "stupid."

Yes, all too true. On PC, like I am, I can use mods to "re-manage" the system so it makes more sense. And really, without doing a whole dissertation on "how xp level progression is just WRONG" and how "learning progression through skills is RIGHT" - well, it's all subjective, and for me even with the anomalies, TES does a better job overall.

I actually have no input at all on how to make what TESV does "better" . I truly don't.

Yes, and it's this that gives a player an uneven balance of skills when going against enemies that level with the character. You're, in effect, 'bringing a knife to a gunfight'....you may have the levels but not the skill in what you need to survive. ( and I agree about the perk trees as well)

Interesting discussion. Personally I enjoy the TES level based on skill increases a lot more than the old D&D XP system. But I didn't think it was implemented that well in Skyrim. That's why I use mods to unlevel the world and rearrange the perk trees, getting rid of all the +20% perks entirely and redesigning all the trees, including a combination of not less than two perk mods to unchain some of the smithing perks and some self made tweaks to further redesign some of the other perk trees.

Oh I much prefer the 'learn by doing' than XPs as well, and maybe at some point I will brave the task of reworking part of my load order to accommodate a different perk system, but for now I'm not so unhappy with it that I'm ready to do that yet. Yikes.

Am I correct in my understanding that OP would like a leveling system akin to that which is found in this mod?

SXP - Skyrim Experience Mod - http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/40899/?

Brodual did an intro video for the mod at - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOacDE3Gbbs

Honestly wish Bethesda making leveling easier or harder through a setting in gameplay was a thing they did. Also yea, removing the need to have a perk in order to get an unrelated perk that was only there because it was in the same tree would be nice.

Fallout 4's perk system, basically would be kinda nice when used for skills.

Not really. Your character doesn't have to even mess with small stuff. It's perfectly viable to spend your time crafting actual weapons and armor.

I can personally testify to the logic behind that, as the only real difference in forging with various materials is temperature control. Hammering on aluminium isn't necessarily going to make you ready to forge steel.

You have that offered through Iron.

I understand what they are saying and doing. I just don't agree with it. All perks should be skill dependent. The only prerequisite that should exist are the ranks of a given perk and I'm not 100% on board with ranks to start with.

The point of making you take a perk you don't want to take one you do is to balance the end perk's power by essentially increasing its cost in perk points.


This also sets a "minimum level" for certain perks, if they take however many points to get to and you get one perk point per level.

But it shouldn't be a chore. It's a game, and games should be fun (at least for me they should).

I grant you its similar I just feel it would feel more organic. say your a mage and you leveled all your magic skills up too 100 but you're not done with the game, you keep leveling up as you explore do quests what have you and you need never stray from you're primary skills, there is nothing really wrong with the way things are done now except for the lack of a true level cap the soft cap was just a bad idea, after playing FO4 I can safely say I WANT a level cap, and the reason why is, it gives the game re-playability, Skyrim killed re-playability (before legendary) having too use every skill just to get 4-5 perk tree's filled out, by separating the skills from the leveling Bethesda can effectively cap the levels without forcing you too pick a class which they were so clearly against when making skyrim. just some of my thoughts