I don't know exactly why the devs deemed it necessary, either; however, for whatever reason, they decided to eliminate the the skill leveling loophole for the Unlock spell, and I would say it is likely they have sought to eliminate a few more of these, given their attitude toward repetitive leveling activities and the changes with Destruction magic leveling, for example, from Morrowind to Oblivion.

As for your question regarding why some of us are pleased that the devs are making an effort in this area, the answer is relatively simple.

Many of us who love RPGs derive a great deal of enjoyment from the character progression and leveling aspects of the game, in particular from carefully planning a build, weighing all the various choices, and helping that character to progress to be as powerful as possible within the parameters of the game.

If leveling Blade means fighting monsters with a sword, and you want to level Blade, such a player will enjoy not only the sense of fulfillment from progressing to Journeyman or Expert in Blade, but also, since fighting monsters is fun, that aspect will be more enjoyable as well.

If leveling Alteration means casting Unlock 100s of times on a door, and you want to level Alteration in Oblivion, such a player will enjoy the sense of fulfillment from progressing, but he or she will most likely not enjoy sitting around casting Unlock on a door repeatedly, at least it is not as enjoyable as, say, leveling Destruction by casting a fireball on an enemy, or leveling Blade by fighting an enemy with a sword.

Riiiiight. I get that. That's why I play the way I do, which is to say, without using tedious exploits like leveling Alteration by casting open 100s of times on the same lock.

The thing I'm not understanding is why anybody needs the devs to make it impossible for them to do that. Are they really unable to simply choose to not do it? No - wait - it's not even that simple. They're apparently unable to stop themselves from choosing to do it, since using those exploits isn't even the default. It's something that somebody has to actively choose to do. How can anybody be unable to stop themselves from actively choosing to go out of their way to do something?

That's the part I don't get.

Thats not the point. The point is that it really wasn't as tedious as it sounds. It didnt take me that long to become a master in alot of my magic skills and become level 30 and beyond in no time. The other issue is that it felt almost necessary at times because you couldnt get any decent spells until you at least an expert in the skill and you still cant even make spells that are better than the crappy default spells until you were a master. I dont care if you can still exploit things in Skyrim (mostly) as long as they give less incentive to do it. Like making it take longer, making it be useful, making earlier level spells less useless, etc.

You had no reason to though.

If they make it to where the only way we can level is in the field, it wouldnt make any sence, cause its not like that IRL.Think about it, if your going to run a race,or marathon, a serious one, do you just jump right in and give it your all?NO, you spend countless hours training and working your buttox off, so you can be ready for what ever comes your way in that race.Same thing in oblivion.I cant tell you the amount of time I have spent casting spells over and over and over and over again to get good at it,that way I dont have to run out in to the field weak as hell, when I could have been training and preparing.

If you look at it from a real life stand point, it makes perfect sence to be able to practice and level by training in the game, as thats how it would be done in real life.

I dont understand why you're concerned about how others are going to play the game, it's a single player game, others actions won't affect you at all. You can simply choose not to take advantage of exploits or console commands. simple as that.

Remember, The TES series are all about freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want - Even if that is exploiting game bugs/features/w.e. If someone wants to do things the cheap way, more power to them.

This isn't a real life stand point. This is an Elder Scrolls stand point. In real life, you don't have a set number of experiences to have and places to go and have countless hours to train your non-super-hero-champion self to do things like marathons.In the elder Scrolls, you don't have this luxury. The progress of the game is based on the quests which rely on your hero doing them. And your hero, in order to perform these tasks, must gain experience and level and see all the things the world has to offer to each corresponding level. If you see the need ( wether it be based on your own incentives or necessity) to sit in some place and constantly tap a button in order to effectively progress through the game, but by doing so bypass all the experiences of levelling in the world, then that aspect of the game is flawed.

I think you have misunderstood my previous post.

1. In Oblivion, it is desirable, fulfilling and enjoyable for many players to achieve, say, Journeyman or Expert level in a skill

2. for some skills, the standard leveling process is enjoyable as well

3. for others, the standard leveling process not enjoyable (Athletics, Alteration, Acrobatics, etc.)

It is not a question of going out of your way to do something, it's simply that the standard process for reaching that higher level, as integrated into the game design, is boring, even though reaching that level is both rewarding and enjoyable.

You may have played Oblivion without casting unlock on a door a single time and leveled your Alteration much more slowly, certainly there are many more in your situation.

However, others will make use of the most efficient way to level Alteration, because they enjoy reaching that level as quickly as possible within the parameters of the game, through legitimate in-game activity (i.e., without using the conole command).

Is it really so difficult for you to understand how it can be enjoyable to reach a higher skill level, even when the process by which you reached that level was not enjoyable?

If you are more comfortable with taking a slower route to leveling your Alteration skill in Oblivion, even though there are faster routes available, that simply suggests you may not derive as much satisfaction from reaching that higher Alteration level as someone else who chooses to take the faster route.

And keep in mind, it is the devs themselves who have decided to the eliminate repetitive casting of unlock on a door to level Alteration, not any of us fans who dislike the activity. In my case at least, I would certainly have still planned to buy Skyrim even if the devs did not do this. Personally, I may be in favor of some changes or opposed to others, but I would never presume to tell the Skyrim devs how to do their job.

I dont know, the game was never flawed for me.I have files where I dont do any sort of boosting/training, and its just not as fun for me.Why the heck should I go jump in and do the mages guild if my magical skills are so poor that I cant be effective and get the crap stomped out of me by necromancers?The way I see it, If Im not training by my self to take on the baddys, the expieriance will be flawed because I will have compleated it in a poor fashon, or in some instances, not compleate it at all or in an unintended way(ie, low sneak in a thieves guild quest, gets ccaught, runs, spoiling fun of mission).

I gues we have different opinions about what flaws these games, but thats what I love about em.Its different for every one.And for me, I play the game like I would irl. :foodndrink: :vaultboy:

Thats what I mean though. You shouldn't have to exploit the games levelling system just to not get killed by necromancers. Its not that I just dont want exploitation, its that I dont want you to have to use it.

I can agree on that, if it were some how made to where he can survive without having to.I will stick to my point other wise, as thats the way I would do things irl, and my characters tend to reflect my real life self...BUT you have a point.Ill take what ever they give me in skyrim.If I cant train, I GUESS it wont bother me to bad.I just hope they implement it to where its easyer to get up in the field so I dont have to boost/self train.

No its not as "simple as that". Its quite obvious that its the DEVELOPERS that are concerned with how YOU are playing that game, and have taken steps to keep you from being able to exploit it. I'm merely supporting them in their endeavor. If you've got a problem with someone being concerned with how you play the game, then take it up with Bethesda, as they're the main guys with the problem.

Second, I completely disagree with you about what "TES series is all about". It is not, and never has been about exploiting game bugs or features. I'm very sorry to hear that this is what you think Bethesda designed the TES series for.

When a game is too easy to exploit and its rules too easy to circumvent, it makes the rules and game mechanics seem pointless, thus diminishing the perceived quality of the game. That's one way that released games get low review scores. Bethesda doesn't want a crappy game, so yes, they are concerned with how you play the game, like it or not.

Worst of all was conjuration. Illusion or Mysticism you could plausibly use Nightvision or Detect Life fairly often. Conjuration you were only going to use when you met an enemy and probably 1 spell per encounter. To make things worse using more powerful spells didn't help you increase the skill any faster. I can understand why people were tempted to use exploits. I just paid for training in it instead.

Won't even bother replying properly to this, since you obviously didn't read what I said. Way to take things outta context buddy.

I read what you said several times. Nobody's keeping you from clarifying things for me if I misunderstood you, though. I'd gladly apologize if there is something I missed....

(but we both know that I really didn't miss anything, right?)

I don't really care if they fix it or not but for spells at least if they are chargeable for more effect like some people think or heck even if they aren't they can activate upon the release of the cast button, not on the pressing of it. Sure if you get the little pecking bird toy like Homer Simpson you can still potentially pull it off I guess, but a simple weight would not spam cast things.

The best way is ensure the players won't feel they need to do that.

Thats a fair response. I agree.

Whether it's someone putting a paperweight on their mouse, or simply pressing the "cast" button (left or right mouse button) repeatedly, in either case, the dev team decided to eliminate that repetitive activity in the case of casting Unlock on a door to raise Alteration.

I imagine they have probably closed a few more of these loopholes with various spells, and perhaps removed the spellmaking feature; however, I think it is likely that they did not remove all of the loopholes.

You still didn't "Have to". You CHOSE to because you wanted to reach expert level, and you opted to reach it by grinding/practicing/studying, rather than by fighting in the field. And for you destruction to level in Oblivion you had to hit an actual target anyway, so you could not level those skills by repeatedly casting them at nothing.

Logically, if you are repeatedly practicing your spells, you will level at some point by using them. The arguments about spells having to do this or that thing to level, doesn't even make sense in some areas. What damage is a light spell going to do? Why would a summoned creature have to attack and defeat something for it to increase your summoning skill? The skill lies in the summoning ability, not in how good the summoned creature is in combat.

There is never a requirement to grind/practice your way to a higher level. It is an option. The compulsion to do so, born of one's own impatience, is not proper cause to remove the function.

Roleplaying the grinding isn't so hard. It is just an extension of the imagination. When I decided to "grind" my conjouration skills up, I went up into the mountains, secluding myself amongst a cult of Daedra worshippers, and began my long, intensive study of the school of Conjouration. When I emerged from my trancelike state of near obsessive casting, contemplating and practicing, I came down from that sacred learing, a master of Conjouration magic, having delved further into the craft than nearly any current inabitant of Cyrodil.

Kind of pointless IMO. So I can't grind it with open lock, so instead I'll cast the shield spell a lot. Personally how I did it was shield was hot key 4, detect life 5, light 6, summon X was 7, fortify intelligence was 8. The only one I made was the fortify spell, the rest were the strongest version I could find that did not take too much of my magicka up when I cast them all in succession. And whenever I was out of town I made sure all of them were up at all times. I waited until the spell wore off to cast it again, but I thought having each of those was good to have on for there own reasons and it trained most of my skills at the same time. I don;t consider it cheesy or an exploit since if you putt buff spells in the game, guess what I'm going to use them to buff myself and I'd like my summon to get hit instead of me if possible so I'll keep one of those around at all times. Now if they put some real durations on these spells I'd be casting them a lot less often.

I think the best you can do really is make sure they have to press the button and can;t just hold it down, that way you have to actually actively train instead of watching netflix instead of playing the game. But I really don't think it is needed as long as console commands are in the game. If keeping the cast key down so you can train alteration works better for you on an emotional level than console command alteration level go for it.

Beautiful. I enjoyed reading that. Spoken like a true fan of fantasy and magic.

Anyways, I've always wished that we could slowly level up by training on dummies and archery targets. It seemed that in Oblivion, you couldn't level up your blade skills unless your blade was actually severing flesh, and you couldn't get better at marksman unless your arrows were actually making pincushions out of live targets.

It made the dummies and archery targets seem pointless. I'm REALLY hoping that they change this.

I would love to develop an Arcane Research mod of some kind that enables you to level your magic skills with some activities that feel like you are really researching magical spells, conducting arcane experiments, etc.

Yes, but the player who does the repeat casting is making a concious CHOICE. They are OPTING to sacrifice (or at least forestall) some of their enjoyable exploration time for more effecient increases to their skill and power. They are studying certain arts so that when they use them in the field they don't get their behinds handed to them so quickly. It is all a matter of prefference, playstyle and freedom. There is certainly no mandate to grind/practise. It is merely an option.


Removing the repeatability of the unlock door spell isn't going to stop anyone from "grinding" or intensely training in Alteration, by the way. Someone who wants it badly enough will just get a water breathing spell, go jump into the nearest river, and emerge with an advanced degree in Alteration several hours later. :foodndrink:

And, to be honest, I think that ADDS to the immersion and verisimilitude. Someone who really wanted to advance their skill in a school of magic WOULD do something like that as an intense form of training.

:rock:
*cue thunderous applause* Perfectly stated. Thank you, sir.