Levitation Denied (?) : V - Skyrim

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:39 pm

Breaking news: Levitation is confirmed!

For gamers to levitate in-game, all they need to do is open the console and type "tcl".

Thats also ghost walk spell then, since collision is disabled.
Such spells restricted only to powerful beings like Dev's and Testers :tongue:

Agreed.

It's like Todd is all "huh, this feature didn't work in the past. I know! I'll just scrap it instead of reworking it to fix the issues it had!" Same with spellmaking, same with birthsigns, same with spears, same with mysticism... Same old story over and over.

Yes why features removed instead of become fixed?

My View as well.
If they felt it was important it will be included.
I seem to remember in Morrowind the beast races were originally not going to be included as playable until an online petition forced the change.

Anyway. If Levitation has to be gimped, there are a number of ways it can be done:
1. Height limit, can not levitate past a certain point.
2. Environmental Damage/Wind effects - Get buffeted around by the wind, slammed into mountains, blown off course or just freeze ala Iron Man.
3. Give some/most of the enemies a workaround - all Ranged attacks (that can't be blocked easily on account of you not being able to position shield)
- an anti-levitation option (lasoo, or spell/power to disable it)

More importantly though, as a single player game, some people will abuse the levitate option, but it is all down to willpower

Thats it, fixed levitation isn't hard to be implemented, for example
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1175613-alternate-gravity-encumbrance-system-and-alternation-school/

I say again
Levitation need to be done it also mentioned in Lore, was in most of previous games, It need to be better implemented, limitations for altitude, levitation can be high-level spell or achieved via high level perk, can cost much magicka for sustain constantly draining, need to concentrate when levitate and be dragged down by enemies when loose concentration, and most useful make NPC actually use magic, enemy mage can be much more interesting in combat if he can levitate at last like lich in oblivion and strafe backward without limitation, NPC can reach player in high places by levitation not stay down and wait when player shoot them.
Levitation even can be implemented with new magic system combine it with feather slowfall waterwalking add nice spell effect like dragon or bird wings or wind tremble at clothes and awesome spell will be created.
Flying in sky is one of fantasy things thats people always want, ok oblivion was divided by cells speed tree looks horrible from high but Skyrim has new engine and new trees is there still problem in implementation of levitation? If some one say thats levitation will ruin dungeons but there can still trigger zones of limit of levitation like in Tribunal, levitation can be limited in dungeons with no ability to fly high, there can still limit altitude in levitation spell.
There different ways make levitation good, not cut it out fix it.
Skyrim trailer show us thats new engine powerful and capable to make Levitation be awesome spell and didn't have oblivion limitations, thats feeling of Sky from eyes of dragon is unforgettable.
Modders work on implementation of levitation in Oblivion since 2006 and animation and scripting one of most hard things to do, but the done it just looks at some of this awesome mods in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgrUPA-TlhM thats one most interesting since apply flying both for player and NPC, and AI can handle levitation very well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rh7ZzYRBzQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=577NFVOHeCs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmjpCqiaOcE

They are work hard for Idea for dream about Flying in Sky
Some speculations says thats Midas Magic (most popular Oblivion mod) show developers how unique magic liked by players and more popular then "boring" spreadsheet magic system
Midas Magic have different spells for flying why not take some inspiration from them?

According an speculation in this thread
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1169937-dragon-wing-tweak/

Dragons fly by their language in TES. The wings are for stability.

So they are levitating?
How about Dovahkiin, can Dragon Born also use they skills for levitation?

Dragons use their language for levitation, logically to say Dragon Born also can do thats so if not an spell levitation still can be an Dragon Shout, also was mentioned an Dragon Shout that will allow teleport to enemy back for stabbing, but if enemy is flying what will be done?
I still see levitation as spell, new magic system can handle levitation in an awesome way.

Don't need fear of features, don't need to remove interesting but flawed features fix them or let others to do thats.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:44 am

Answer: The marauders problem. Im a mage. If he cant have the foresight to bring a scroll of dispel, a mage will own him.

And thats your solution right there. Would be awful to use levitation in a fight if your average NPC just dispels it causing you to take falling damage and be stunned.

You know about something called balance, don't you?

So... do you want terribly overpowered mages...? Not for me, thanks.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:23 pm

I think the cell system they use with the game when they made it might have too many problems with you bypassing certain entry points that might have scripted events attached to them.

Example.. something happens when you walk through a certain mountain pass.. if you can levitate pass that scripted point, it might not trigger that event.. "breaking" the event..

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:20 pm

Oh yeah, cause levitation was the only easy mode option; conjuration&invisibilty, chameleon100%, reflectdamage&magic100%, paralyze 1sec, etc.
It's a single player game, I can play how ever I feel. I don't like fighting all the time, even without levitation I'm still going to go invisible and walk past my problems. :shrug: I'm the shaper of my experience&narrative if I want to be cheap, I can.

Regardless of the balance issues (which are easily dealt with) I bet levitation isn't in due to BGS being incapable of fighting a levitation animation that isn't completely ridiculous, or they are lazy.

Yes,how Levitation worked wasn't the only problem. But that doesn't mean anything. II would like to have LESS "broken things" in my game, not more just because there are some.

Balance doesn't matter to you? Well, then I want a chest at the beggining of the game containing full daedric armor and be given the option to choose all my perks at the beggining of the game. HEY, IT'S OPTIONAL.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:38 am

You know about something called balance, don't you?

So... do you want terribly overpowered mages...? Not for me, thanks.

Yeah.. and if you had bothered to read the second paragraph of my post you quoted..

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:41 am

Yeah.. and if you had bothered to read the second paragraph of my post you quoted..

I did. A warrior cannot dispel if he doesn't have a scroll. And warriors are not used to take scrolls with them... Do you want every NPC to have Dispel scrolls with them, just in case? And what about beasts?

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:13 am

Yes,how Levitation worked wasn't the only problem. But that doesn't mean anything. II would like to have LESS "broken things" in my game, not more just because there are some.

Balance doesn't matter to you? Well, then I want a chest at the beggining of the game containing full daedric armor and be given the option to choose all my perks at the beggining of the game. HEY, IT'S OPTIONAL.

What balance?
Remove the ability to attack while in levitation (make spell two handed, have to stay out to maintain spell), done. Not overpowered. Works just like invisibility. Hell want to take it farther, levitation requires 100 in alteration. Oh my was that hard...

To add I don't care about balance, because I'm a Wizard. I should be powerful.

Edit: It's not a balance issue, so stop using that as your platform.
More likey reasons for it's non inclusion is animation or interference in trigger events.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:38 am

What balance?
Remove the ability to attack while in levitation (make spell two handed, have to say out to maintain spell), done. Not overpowered. Works just like invisibility. Hell want to take it farther, levitation requires 100 in alteration. Oh my was that hard...

To add I don't care about balance, because I'm a Wizard. I should be powerful.

That about making it you-handed sounds good. However, you would still be able to acces to places where you are not supposed to be without neing attacked and take incredible items you are not supposed to have... because it would make you, well, overpower...

Oh, and while I understand that magic is a powerful thing and all of that, there has to be some balance. You are a mage? Good for you. Now, if I create a warrior, you shouldn't be a killing machine while I would die against every magic-user I met. I'm an awesome warrior, like Conan. I should be powerful.

Balance is indeed an important thing.

EDIT: You can think so. But I think it's for the sake of balance. I wouldn't be against it if it was heavily revised.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:00 am

What balance?
Remove the ability to attack while in levitation (make spell two handed, have to stay out to maintain spell), done. Not overpowered. Works just like invisibility. Hell want to take it farther, levitation requires 100 in alteration. Oh my was that hard...

To add I don't care about balance, because I'm a Wizard. I should be powerful.

Edit: It's not a balance issue, so stop using that as your platform.
More likey reasons for it's non inclusion is animation or interference in trigger events.

Thank you!
I do like sanity when I stumble across it.

No such thing as 'items Im not supposed to have' or 'places Im not supposed to go' in an open world sandbox RPG.
This is not a shooter.
Go play mass effect if you like that kind of thing.
Do not petition to bring elder scrolls down to that level simply because you get confused by the concept of a freeform game.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:22 am

That about making it you-handed sounds good. However, you would still be able to acces to places where you are not supposed to be without neing attacked and take incredible items you are not supposed to have... because it would make you, well, overpower...

Oh, and while I understand that magic is a powerful thing and all of that, there has to be some balance. You are a mage? Good for you. Now, if I create a warrior, you shouldn't be a killing machine while I would die against every magic-user I met. I'm an awesome warrior, like Conan. I should be powerful.

Balance is indeed an important thing.

EDIT: You can think so. But I think it's for the sake of balance. I wouldn't be against it if it was heavily revised.

Yeah, but, as I said before in this thread, I'm still going to going to turn invisible and walk past the mass majority if my enemies, like oblivion/morrowind/daggerfall. I only fight people I feel are worthy of me (mostly leaders and other mages). It's my narrative I decide how my character views and interacts with his world.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:27 am

Yeah, but, as I said before in this thread, I'm still going to going to turn invisible and walk past the mass majority if my enemies, like oblivion/morrowind/daggerfall. I only fight people I feel are worthy of me (mostly leaders and other mages). It's my narrative I decide how my character views and interacts with his world.

I really love freedom in TES games. Really. However, our narrative is always limited by what Bethesda has made. And, to be honest, I think that what you have mentioned about being invisible (Chameleon 100%, isn't it?) should be revised as well. Being able to do actually whatever we want would be the game... boring. At least for me.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:01 am

I really love freedom in TES games. Really. However, our narrative is always limited by what Bethesda has made. And, to be honest, I think that what you have mentioned about being invisible (Chameleon 100%, isn't it?) should be revised as well. Being able to do actually whatever we want would be the game... boring. At least for me.

Not chameleon, invisibility (the one you can't attack with). If invisibility is removed, that's my deal breaker.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:46 am

Can you levitate in Skyrim?

Todd Howard: Another DLC. Three hundred dollars.

I will pay for thats if NPC will also use levitation

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:46 am

Let me tell ya something. Levitation could be implemented in Skyrim in a non-game breaking and fun way. It's just all up to the designers.

If anything, it could be something you get post-main quest or very, very late in the game. That way it doesn't mess up the game and allows people who have already done just about everything to have some extra fun.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:05 pm

Levitation = unnecessary if the game world and AI aren't designed to accommodate it.

lol "we can haz levitate?" lol

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:27 pm

I did. A warrior cannot dispel if he doesn't have a scroll. And warriors are not used to take scrolls with them... Do you want every NPC to have Dispel scrolls with them, just in case? And what about beasts?

Or a bow, or your own spells. If something is handicapped accept the handicap don't complain that the world isn't weakened so you can beat it while handicapped. I am sure mages will be dipping into rogue skills for alchemy and probably fighter skills for block here and there as well. Why is it so much to ask that fighters might have to dip into rogue or mage skills so they pick up something as basic to tactics as a ranged attack. Do we really want a game that is so basic a situation never comes up where a person might think gee I'd be better off with a ranged weapon or other cross class skill right about now.

If levitate had 0 countermeasures or 0 effective ones it would be an issue. But the AI having a simple script for what to do when the target is out of reach solves all of this because there are actions in the game that can counter levitate. Why don't we ban big rocks you can get on and shadows rogues can hide in next I am sure those can break the game as well.

As for beasts um yeah so what. I am sure there are plenty of creatures a fighter is not really threatened by, or things a rogue can defeat without threat. The ability to defeat a bear safely isn't really something that concerns me on the game balance level.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:55 am

I loved levitiation and think it should be in Skyrim, since it's just a part of Nirn. They would at least need a better explanation why it isn't in lore wise, especially because it was in the Infernal City.

And there have been many great ideas how to balance it easily.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:14 am

Including/excluding levitation will depend solely on the Skyrim engine performance (in particular on consoles).

No doubt the engine was bench-marked on the slowest of the targeted consoles, with 2 possible approaches in mind:
(1) The closed-city approach of Oblivion (levitation is impossible, but easy performance gain due to simplified far objects)
(2) The open-city approach of Morrowind (no technical reason to exclude Levitation, but it needs advanced handling of far objects like the Farcry engines do)

If Mr. Howard answers a question like 'levitate in Skyrim ?' with 'Another DLC. Three hundred dollars', well... i deduce that benchmark number (2) did not go well and levitation MUST be left out for performance reasons.

Note to the casual reader:
the above may sound weird, but believe me: (1) Open/closed cities (2) Performance and (3) Levitation are closely linked. Consoles - the slowest of the targeted platforms - will determine the destiny of levitation.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:07 pm

Including/excluding levitation will depend solely on the Skyrim engine performance (in particular on consoles).

No doubt the engine was bench-marked on the slowest of the targeted consoles, with 2 possible approaches in mind:
(1) The closed-city approach of Oblivion (levitation is impossible, but easy performance gain due to simplified far objects)
(2) The open-city approach of Morrowind (no technical reason to exclude Levitation, but it needs advanced handling of far objects like the Farcry engines do)

If Mr. Howard answers a question like 'levitate in Skyrim ?' with 'Another DLC. Three hundred dollars', well... i deduce that benchmark number (2) did not go well and levitation MUST be left out for performance reasons.

Note to the casual reader:
the above may sound weird, but believe me: (1) Open/closed cities (2) Performance and (3) Levitation are closely linked. Consoles - the slowest of the targeted platforms - will determine the destiny of levitation.

You know, I could live with it not being in for technical reasons a whole lot better than I could with it not being in because its an exploit.
One is a fact, the other an opinion.

I know too little about technical electronics stuff or programming though to even guesstimate if it would be an issue performancewise.

As for handling of far away objects, as I remember in vanilla Morrowind the distance view was quite limited. Ive seen vids of some mods that reduce fog, so you can actually see the towers of Arkngthand from Balmora.
I can imagine that such a long view would have made far away things looking weird when levitating on vanilla.

Hmm.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:17 am

"IGN: Can you levitate in Skyrim?

Todd Howard: Another DLC. Three hundred dollars."

Ass.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:09 pm

And to those of you who say levitate wasn't broken in Morrowind, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfNbPQJ5Fdc

That's not broken Levitation, it's a broken quest (which could be exploited by using Levitation or Jump/Slowfall). But that's like saying that a fireball spell would be broken if it insta-killed an enemy with -10000% fire resistance instead of -100% (due to a similar glitch).

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:26 am

I don't see the big deal with it. You float. Yay.

How about they focus on what they already have?

Besides, Todd never said that it's not in, just made a joke as to continue speculation on whether or not the spell is in.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:32 am

I guess levitation is just too awesome and epic for the casual gamer.
Levitation is in the lore, and a magic battle in the air would be awesome. (if NPCs can use levitation)

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:10 am

I guess levitation is just too awesome and epic for the casual gamer.
Levitation is in the lore, and a magic battle in the air would be awesome. (if NPCs can use levitation)

Lets see if NPCs can even jump first.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:06 am

Not chameleon, invisibility (the one you can't attack with). If invisibility is removed, that's my deal breaker.

Oh, while you cannot atack, I find it quite fair. So I have no problem at all with Invisibility.

I guess levitation is just too awesome and epic for the casual gamer.
Levitation is in the lore, and a magic battle in the air would be awesome. (if NPCs can use levitation)

Yes, and... what would warriors and stealthy characters do? How would beasts react?

Once more, that results in overpowered mages...