Levitation Denied (?) : V - Skyrim

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:53 am

I've only read up to page 4 but people seemt to think mages are supposed to be these ultimate gods who are not bound by any laws whatsoever and piss all over the other archetypes with their supreme power.

Well here's something. THEY'RE NOT. Mages are one of 3 playstyles that are designed to be equally effective and beneficial. A mages power is supposed to be limited so the greatest mage is overall no more effective than th greatest warrior or stealth character.

EDIT: In fact, normal combat-wise, mages should be LESS effective than warriors, and so should stealth characters. Warrior's advantage is their fighting power, stealth is their stealth related stuff, and magic is the many out-of-the-way utilities that magic provides. In a straight on face off of full mage and full warrior of the same level, disregarding player skill, the warrior should win.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:11 am

This is called a flaw...

Mages can be a "universal" class because they can do almost anything. Because of that great power, they should be required to train more.

And the way the shield spells work svcks, they hardly help unless enchanted into something or its a really high spell. You have to take into account the time required to change spells, using a shield spell requires switching between spells, which takes time. Mages run slowly, so they can't run away to gain more time. The same logic applies to levitation, if a mage doesn't immediately levitate away, then the mage might cast it too late.

And warriors can target mages, its called Thu'um, and there are NPC's that can do it...
Saying a warrior is at a disadvantage against a levitating mage is lie saying they are at a disadvantage against dragons. As long as they balance levitation better, such as requiring it be channeled rather than a set duration or a much higher magicka cost, it doesn't disadvantage anyone.

EDIT: Mysticism was never redundant. Detect spells don't manipulate anyones perception, they magically detect something. Absorb spells don't fit into restoration anymore than they fit in destruction. Reflect doesn't fit into alteration at all, you aren't altering the state of something, such as movement and velocity, unless you argue you can apply alteration physical interaction to spells which you shouldn't since magic isn't physical.

Yes, but mages don't REQUIRE more training to be as effective as Warriors.

The shield spell works essentially in the same way that armor does, except it is time but doesn't degrade with each hit. You underestimate it.

I never said warriors CAN'T target mages. I have no clue why you'd imagine I did. You have NO idea how dragon combat works. Saying that "as long as they balance levitation...it doesn't disadvantage anyone" only supports my argument

EDIT: Mysticism WAS redundant. The only spell type that would count as 'mysticism' is detect. I didn't say absorb fits into restoration although it does fit restoration more than destruction (since it restores you). Reflection IS altering something (the direction of a spell). Alteration is not only physical, you can alter magic with it as well (considering it is magic itself).

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:10 am

Yes, but mages don't REQUIRE more training to be as effective as Warriors.

The shield spell works essentially in the same way that armor does, except it is time but doesn't degrade with each hit. You underestimate it.

I never said warriors CAN'T target mages. I have no clue why you'd imagine I did. You have NO idea how dragon combat works. Saying that "as long as they balance levitation...it doesn't disadvantage anyone" only supports my argument

+ 10pts of armor mean nothing when you lose 3-4 seconds of combat. Unless its enchanted, thus not taking time.

And we all have been saying it needs to be balanced. But yet you continue to think we want it implemented exactly as Morrowind...
I've already suggested that it be "channeled" which requires it being cast constantly, as soon as you stop you fall. Thus no other spells (unless levitation can be 1 handed, but it could operate as slowfall in 1 hand instead) can be cast. It needs to be really expensive too. Only the most demigod mages would be able to stay in the air for considerable periods of time, requiring your average mage to touch back down, except with drained magicka (because its being channeled, it constantly eats magicka). And I once again said that mages should take longer to level, expecially considering warriors now have very few skills to level, smithing, 1 weapon skill (2 is a player choice to not specialize, which will of course penalize them), and an armor skill. Mages either level almost all magic schools, or they are hybrids and wouldn't level alteration high enough to receive levitation at a decent level. Not to mention I said since mages are given so much power, their levels should be harder to level. Restoration in Oblivion was ridiculous to level, and I never fully leveled it (destruction was too, but it was too important not to), and magic in general should be harder to level, the sacrifice for regenerating magicka.

We keep saying it needs to be balanced, and yet you figure we want a fly button that costs 5 magicka for 30 seconds.

EDIT: Alteration is the magic of altering the physical world. No reflect spell. Reflect damage makes little sense (you aren't reflecting the sword the guy swings, you are transfering the damage from your body to his (a good way to balance it would be for you to recieve the damage, and heal as it disappears) ). Absorb restores and damages, so it would be a equally likely candidate for destruction or restoration, and you could argue the nature of the transfer of stats relates to mysticism in a similar way that reflect damage could using my argument.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:35 am

As I said afore, you are misconstruing the issue. Yes, Mages take multiple magic skills into consideration, so do Warriors. Warriors generally take armor skills, maybe blocking, athletics, armorer, etc. etc. Mages take no more work than Warriors.

I did not say levitation can't exist, I just said it should not exist in the form that it existed in Morrowind (i.e. being able to attack or cast spells during flight).

Mysticism needed to be removed. This is not really a matter of contention. As Todd himself said, the magical school of mysticism is slightly redundant (although not to the degree he was insinuating). Most of it's spells belonged in other schools anyway (technically they were all Alteration abilities with the exception of detect which could arguably be put into illusion).

Except none of those skills for mages provide natural defenses, unlike warriors. In addition, Mages stat for magicka, whereas warriors can dump all their stats into health (in Skyrim).

Mages have a lot of power, but if something hits them, a lot of damage is taken. Its extremely difficult to juggle defenses and offenses as a Mage. Perhaps Skyrim's dual-wielding mechanic will finally allow mages to defend and attack at the same time (shield spell in off hand, damage spell in main hand).

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:49 pm

+ 10pts of armor mean nothing when you lose 3-4 seconds of combat. Unless its enchanted, thus not taking time.

And we all have been saying it needs to be balanced. But yet you continue to think we want it implemented exactly as Morrowind...
I've already suggested that it be "channeled" which requires it being cast constantly, as soon as you stop you fall. Thus no other spells (unless levitation can be 1 handed, but it could operate as slowfall in 1 hand instead) can be cast. It needs to be really expensive too. Only the most demigod mages would be able to stay in the air for considerable periods of time, requiring your average mage to touch back down, except with drained magicka (because its being channeled, it constantly eats magicka). And I once again said that mages should take longer to level, expecially considering warriors now have very few skills to level, smithing, 1 weapon skill (2 is a player choice to not specialize, which will of course penalize them), and an armor skill. Mages either level almost all magic schools, or they are hybrids and wouldn't level alteration high enough to receive levitation at a decent level. Not to mention I said since mages are given so much power, their levels should be harder to level. Restoration in Oblivion was ridiculous to level, and I never fully leveled it (destruction was too, but it was too important not to), and magic in general should be harder to level, the sacrifice for regenerating magicka.

We keep saying it needs to be balanced, and yet you figure we want a fly button that costs 5 magicka for 30 seconds.

EDIT: Alteration is the magic of altering the physical world. No reflect spell. Reflect damage makes little sense (you aren't reflecting the sword the guy swings, you are transfering the damage from your body to his (a good way to balance it would be for you to recieve the damage, and heal as it disappears) ). Absorb restores and damages, so it would be a equally likely candidate for destruction or restoration, and you could argue the nature of the transfer of stats relates to mysticism in a similar way that reflect damage could using my argument.

You can cast it before battle starts, use one that's 40-50 points and it probably takes closer to 2-3 seconds tops.

Some people have such a thick skull :facepalm: I never said anything against balancing it. I've only argued against it's implementation in Morrowind's form. If you knew how to read you'd see that in any response to suggestions of balance I agreed and in any assertion that levitation in general was balanced (which would mean levitation in any form) I disagreed.

Alteration is the magic of ALTERATION. It need not be limited to the physical world (and has never been limited as such since you can have fire shield or the like). Mysticism's Spell Absorption does not damage foes and thus is not a candidate for Destruction. Mysticism is the obscure art of divining information through metaphysical means, it has NOTHING to do with anything besides detect

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:55 pm

Except none of those skills for mages provide natural defenses, unlike warriors. In addition, Mages stat for magicka, whereas warriors can dump all their stats into health (in Skyrim).

Mages have a lot of power, but if something hits them, a lot of damage is taken. Its extremely difficult to juggle defenses and offenses as a Mage. Perhaps Skyrim's dual-wielding mechanic will finally allow mages to defend and attack at the same time (shield spell in off hand, damage spell in main hand).

None of the warrior's skill provide natural defense against spells. Given Magic generally does more damage than melee it makes sense that mages would have less health than Warriors.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:38 pm

I've only read up to page 4 but people seemt to think mages are supposed to be these ultimate gods who are not bound by any laws whatsoever and piss all over the other archetypes with their supreme power.

Not exactly. Pure mages should spend 3x the amount of time working on their training, and then they should piss all over other archetypes with their supreme x3 power. Mage = More work, more damage/usefulness potential. Warrior = Less work, less damage/usefulness potential.

None of the warrior's skill provide natural defense against spells. Given Magic generally does more damage than melee it makes sense that mages would have less health than Warriors.

Dark Elf 75% (magical) fire reistance: Skill bonuses strength bow and destruction (mostly warrior/or spell sword)

Nord: 50 - 100% (magical) frost resistance: Skill bonuses Sword, Heavy armor

Orc: 25% magic resistance

And redgaurds have some nifty poison and diaereses resistances (many mages are armed with poisons)

The traditional fighter races seem to have a lot of useful magic resistances, and in daggerfall if you want to emphasise on fighting you can actually make your character highly resistant to magic

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:21 am

Not exactly. Pure mages should spend 3x the amount of time working on their training, and then they should piss all over other archetypes with their supreme x3 power. Mage = More work, more damage/usefulness potential. Warrior = Less work, less damage/usefulness potential.

No, mages are supposed to be equal. Let's think.... shorter playlength, weaker character or longer playlength, stronger character? Of course they're going to choose the second one! TES mages are NOT gods. They are not meant to be mroe powerful than anyone else. They have different advantages, but subsequent disadvantages. The whole idea of TES is that ever playstyle is equal. They are just different specialisations based on personal preference.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:27 am

None of the warrior's skill provide natural defense against spells. Given Magic generally does more damage than melee it makes sense that mages would have less health than Warriors.

But warriors have naturally high HP. Mage's get high willpower to resist spells, sure, but if they get hit they usually die almost instantly. In addition, don't act as if the spell schools let mage's defend against spells well, because those spells are extremely expensive and hard to cast. Alchemy is the best choice in defending against spells, and that is much more readily available to warriors than the various magics.

So mages get hit hard by EVERYTHING. Warriors get hit hard by Mages. Mages have high potential damage, while warriors get much more sustained (can still put out just as insane damage with enchantments).

Is it really so bad that mages actually get a USABLE defense? Because most others are too prohibitively expensive or hard to cast (Depending on which game you are playing).

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:22 pm

Not exactly. Pure mages should spend 3x the amount of time working on their training, and then they should piss all over other archetypes with their supreme x3 power. Mage = More work, more damage/usefulness potential. Warrior = Less work, less damage/usefulness potential.

:lol: no kid. The reason many mages take longer is because they try to used the strongest spells, meaning it takes less repetitions to kill someone and the skills raise slower. Technically you never work any harder. Mage = same work, more damage/variety. Warrior = same work, more health/defense

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:48 pm

i think you should be able to levitate, but i think it should be like a level 40 spell and you have to be extremely skilled in magic to use it. it shouldn't be a potion, it should be a spell.

and it should be something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SACFLvjLL8o&feature=related in terms of controls. (minus the wings)

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:10 pm

But warriors have naturally high HP. Mage's get high willpower to resist spells, sure, but if they get hit they usually die almost instantly. In addition, don't act as if the spell schools let mage's defend against spells well, because those spells are extremely expensive and hard to cast. Alchemy is the best choice in defending against spells, and that is much more readily available to warriors than the various magics.

So mages get hit hard by EVERYTHING. Warriors get hit hard by Mages. Mages have high potential damage, while warriors get much more sustained (can still put out just as insane damage with enchantments).

Is it really so bad that mages actually get a USABLE defense? Because most others are too prohibitively expensive or hard to cast (Depending on which game you are playing).

Warriors advantage is combat. In straight combat, warriors should be the strongest. When warriors get the ability to turn invisible, detect life, decrease their encumberment and restore health without assistance, then mages can have as good defence as warriors.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:10 am

I still think levitating anywhere destorys a HUGE part of level design. Controlling the character. This can be used to direct the character for many reasons. Without this, their level design options are seriously more limited, making more bland and dry areas to explore. So what do you guys want? A more envolved and rewarding game, or the ability to levitate?

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:33 am

Im getting really tired of this. There's so many close-minded people here.

A:) It's a single player game.. when it comes down to it theres no OP weapons or spells

B:) If it is such a problem, the spell should be made more mana-intensive so it can't be used on such high levels.

There's no reason not to include levitation.

More power should be given to mage characters if they pursue the opportunity to gain said power. Magic seems like the sort of thing that should be less limited. Become a wizard not a mobile pyro-effect unit.

I have to disagree with 1). Why don't you just toggle god mode, give yourself every spell, and make yourself level 100 using the console? Because it is overpowered, and it isn't fun. I don't know why people think that over-powering something is only relevant multi-player games. If people want to play as a god in a sand box environment, then they should mod, use the console, or just get to the highest level. [/rant]

I am not saying that levitation is always overpowered, I agree if NPCs reacted to it better it would be fine.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:03 pm

But warriors have naturally high HP. Mage's get high willpower to resist spells, sure, but if they get hit they usually die almost instantly. In addition, don't act as if the spell schools let mage's defend against spells well, because those spells are extremely expensive and hard to cast. Alchemy is the best choice in defending against spells, and that is much more readily available to warriors than the various magics.

So mages get hit hard by EVERYTHING. Warriors get hit hard by Mages. Mages have high potential damage, while warriors get much more sustained (can still put out just as insane damage with enchantments).

Is it really so bad that mages actually get a USABLE defense? Because most others are too prohibitively expensive or hard to cast (Depending on which game you are playing).

You don't get the point. Mages hit everything hard: warriors and other mages. Also, they get hit hard by those. Warriors hit some things hard: mages. But they are hit hard by those. They hit other warriors softly and get hit by those softly. It's all even in the wash. Mages don't need an extra OP defense

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:43 pm

i think you should be able to levitate, but i think it should be like a level 40 spell and you have to be extremely skilled in magic to use it. it shouldn't be a potion, it should be a spell.

and it should be something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SACFLvjLL8o&feature=related in terms of controls. (minus the wings)

It should be something along the lines that would make me gouge my eyes out? Meanie...

All they really need to do to make it work is make NPCs react to it, and then either make it cost a lot of magicka, make so you can't fight with the arm that cast the spell (meaning you couldn't just swap to dual fireballs and spam them while flying), or getting hit should dispel the levitation effect.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:17 am

I still think levitating anywhere destorys a HUGE part of level design. Controlling the character. This can be used to direct the character for many reasons. Without this, their level design options are seriously more limited, making more bland and dry areas to explore. So what do you guys want? A more envolved and rewarding game, or the ability to levitate?

How does it limit level design? Levitation offers more benefits in the areas you can reach with it, meaning that devs can add hidden places for people with levitate to find.

The most I can see it hurting level design is trying to control a linear flow of the level, with height part of that control. In this instance, going through the dungeon in the wrong direction is a reward players get for their achievement.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:48 am

Warriors advantage is combat. In straight combat, warriors should be the strongest. When warriors get the ability to turn invisible, detect life, decrease their encumberment and restore health without assistance, then mages can have as good defence as warriors.

I'm not asking for defense as strong as warriors, I'm asking for defense AT ALL. Mage's only defense, in the past several games, is offense, most of the time. Alchemy fills in the holes.

[censored], just let the shield spell act exactly as a shield, but channeled. That would be really nice.

Mages don't need an extra OP defense

You refuse to pay attention to any of the ideas put foward in this thread. Try doing that before trying to start a debate.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:21 am

No, mages are supposed to be equal. Let's think.... shorter playlength, weaker character or longer playlength, stronger character? Of course they're going to choose the second one! TES mages are NOT gods. They are not meant to be mroe powerful than anyone else. They have different advantages, but subsequent disadvantages. The whole idea of TES is that ever playstyle is equal. They are just different specialisations based on personal preference.

It's quite to opposite really, mages have been quite underpowered in just about every TES installment. A lot easier to grab warhammer and smash some face. Why would anybody commit to magical study when they could acocmplish the same [censored] except way easier?

And NO, wizards and mages are the most powerful people, in Morrowind immortal demi-gods like Divareth Fry and the rest of the Telvanni sorcerers are immortal and nearly all powerful (though they are quite easy to kill with a warhammer

) Jagar Tharn overthrew the empire temporarily and he was a mage. N'Gasta, a very powerful figurehead powerful figureheads.. a necromancer and mage.. The King of Worms, a very powerful necromancer and mage, Count Hassildor, a very powerful wizard at one point. I could probably continue.

In lore and story the mages are always the most powerful.

I still think levitating anywhere destorys a HUGE part of level design. Controlling the character. This can be used to direct the character for many reasons. Without this, their level design options are seriously more limited, making more bland and dry areas to explore. So what do you guys want? A more envolved and rewarding game, or the ability to levitate?

Gotta disagree with you, it encourages clever map design. Morrowind had some great dungeons, almost all of them levitation-proof.. some even encouraging levitation to secret areas.

i think you should be able to levitate, but i think it should be like a level 40 spell and you have to be extremely skilled in magic to use it. it shouldn't be a potion, it should be a spell.

Wait, work on improving something instead of simply removing it? Thats so crazy it just might work!

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:00 am

How does it limit level design? Levitation offers more benefits in the areas you can reach with it, meaning that devs can add hidden places for people with levitate to find.

The most I can see it hurting level design is trying to control a linear flow of the level, with height part of that control. In this instance, going through the dungeon in the wrong direction is a reward players get for their achievement.

i am for levitation being in as long as it's balanced and there is a non-magic alternative for such places. Certain types should be better at certain things, but none should ever be totally locked out because of their class. If there is a grapling hook to get to hard to reach areas, then levitation can be in.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:47 am

You don't get the point. Mages hit everything hard: warriors and other mages. Also, they get hit hard by those. Warriors hit some things hard: mages. But they are hit hard by those. They hit other warriors softly and get hit by those softly. It's all even in the wash. Mages don't need an extra OP defense

Its only even if the numbers match, which they don't. Play as a mage on level 50 in Oblivion. If you can not die on the hardest difficulty, or a normal difficulty (after playing it for a sufficient time) then I applaud you. At level 50 in Oblivion mages damage is capped, but enemies health sure isn't. I was forced into using invisibility along with a 10 damage for 120 seconds spell in order to kill most things. So many deaths by bears its not even funny.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:47 am

It should be something along the lines that would make me gouge my eyes out? Meanie...

All they really need to do to make it work is make NPCs react to it, and then either make it cost a lot of magicka, make so you can't fight with the arm that cast the spell (meaning you couldn't just swap to dual fireballs and spam them while flying), or getting hit should dispel the levitation effect.

exactly. its completely doable if they put the right safeguards in place to make it balanced. i'm not seeing why anyone wouldn't want levitation in the game. it just needs to be an extremely rare spell.

...and faery wasn't that bad :sad:

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:23 am

It's quite to opposite really, mages have been quite underpowered in just about every TES installment. A lot easier to grab warhammer and smash some face. Why would anybody commit to magical study when they could acocmplish the same [censored] except way easier?

And NO, wizards and mages are the most powerful people, in Morrowind immortal demi-gods like Divareth Fry and the rest of the Telvanni sorcerers are immortal and nearly all powerful (though they are quite easy to kill with a warhammer

) Jagar Tharn overthrew the empire temporarily and he was a mage. N'Gasta, a very powerful figurehead powerful figureheads.. a necromancer and mage.. The King of Worms, a very powerful necromancer and mage, Count Hassildor, a very powerful wizard at one point. I could probably continue.

In lore and story the mages are always the most powerful.

Gotta disagree with you, it encourages clever map design. Morrowind had some great dungeons, almost all of them levitation-proof.. some even encouraging levitation to secret areas.

And no powerful figures in TES history have been non-mages (not to mention that mage != demigod)? One archetype being better than the others is bad design, plain and simple.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:00 am

If there is a grapling hook to get to hard to reach areas, then levitation can be in.

As if Bethesda could even animate climbing.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:41 am

Breaking news: Levitation is confirmed!

For gamers to levitate in-game, all they need to do is open the console and type "tcl".

Man that reminds me how bad moving around when Levitating was, I don't like Levitation because it was broken. Now of course that might be able to come up with a fixed version, one easy fix would be to get rid of the ability to attack when levitating. Like in Risen(iirc).