Don't let some trolls bring you down like that. Like Dragon32 said, modding should be a Cathedral. The original authors knew their stuff was going to get edited, yeah? It's collaborative - things change, things improve, you get bugfixes, etc. The MPP isn't disrespectful of the original programmers and devs at Bethesda - it fixes their mistakes. LGNPC isn't disrespectful to the original writers and devs who wrote dialog - they had time and budget constraints. Continuous improvement is part of the post-release process.

A compromise: keep the older versions available for download for those people that are afraid of you making this mod more awesome (I bet they'd secretly download the new version, despite all their bluster).

I couldn't agree more.

Foryn Gilnith is the antagonist in the official Dead Taxman quest who has new dialog provided by LGNPC Seyda Neen a mod by Joe Stevens with the most current update provided by Wrye. Back in the early days of LGNPC (and Joe Stevens' work pre-dates creation of the project) new greetings were not written. What you heard was a generic cheerful Bethesda greetings followed by disgruntled LGNPC dialog on various topics. The inconsistency that creates may have been the primary reason for including new greetings in later LGNPC installments.





*sigh*

That awkward silence was all of us thinking the same thing but being too afraid to mention it.


I had been hoping that if I waited long enough that this 'controversy' would play itself out, but I can see now that is not going to happen. What no one wanted to be the first to say is that the sort of problem described by BTB might be resolved in a 'significant' update of Seyda Neen - something we have long intended.

Apparently my post from 31 May generated some confusion and excited some strong responses. I am not certain that another long post from me is going to clear it up - it may even make it worse. I will try to form a logical response, but additional posts have taken this theme on so many tangents that the narrative may not be very straightforward. I suggest you get comfortable, and read very slowly.


It does not seem people are talking about the sort of work that I declared as suspended. Certainly LGNPC will update previously released mods for the purpose of repairing bugs, resolving conflicts where possible and fixing typos. It is the lattermost task that has had me in such a mood for most of the past two weeks. I know it has to be done, but I would rather be doing something more interesting like creating new dialog and quests. Don't worry... the editing will be performed. I am not so young that merely disliking a task prevents me from doing it. Given enough time I may learn not to resent it so much, but this sustained discussion of it does not make it easier to put behind me.


I do not know what the original authors were thinking, but I share your view that they probably did not intend to break official quests. Since this is showing the potential of becoming a lynching there will be no naming of names.

By 'indifferent reception' I mean that besides the justifiable concern expressed by some regarding the rewriting of earlier installments, there is not a single line to be read about Khuul's update or the Ald'ruhn supplement (beyond how to us it). These were released to gauge the community's interest in similar treatment of other towns in the future, and except for the aforementioned objections there does not appear to be an opinion - i.e. indifference. I suppose this is a consequence of there being many things the community desires from our project. Testing and release of the LGNPC version of Ostar's Tribunal, Bloodmoon and Nerevarine, completion of Ebonheart (yes, m'lady), work on Balmora and some Telvanni towns - even a LGNPC treatment of the innocent Nords found wandering outside Daedric ruins. This in addition to the very reasonable requests for bug-free quests and error-free dialog that do not break official content or conflict with other mods. We do not have the resources to do it all so we must prioritize - that is why community feedback is important to us. It not only guides what we do, but is helps us decide the order in which certain projects should be pursued.


Of course it was an accident. I was not suggesting that we would ignore serious errors in earlier releases. In fact, we have spent as much time doing just that as developing new projects. It is a matter of how we approach those fixes that we are deliberating.


[I was THIS close (very close) to correcting your spelling of Ald'ruhn - can't you see what this is doing to me? ]

I will try again.

There is LGNPC Ald'ruhn and there is LGNPC Ald'ruhn supplement. In the beginning there was only LGNPC Ald'ruhn and it addressed 127 NPCs. In version 1.20 twelve of those NPCs have been 'turned off' - their LGNPC dialog disabled by adding a check for the cell Abaelun Mine. Since Ald'ruhn NPCs are not likely to be encountered in Abaelun Mine their LGNPC dialog will not be used. Any quests associated with them have been similarly disabled. It does not require much construction set savvy to removed the counter-filters and have your own beautifully restored version of Ald'ruhn complete with all of its original flaws.

The LGNPC Ald'ruhn supplement adds dialog and five quests for the same twelve NPCs for whom their dialog was disabled in the non-supplemental version of LGNPC Ald'ruhn. When used together LGNPC Ald'ruhn and LGNPC Ald'ruhn supplement complement each other perfectly to provide less generic dialog for the entirety of Ald'ruhn. However one does not depend on the other. A purist might run only the original Ald'ruhn esp whereas a visionary might renounce the original in favor of the supplement. As always no player is obligated to use either mod.

The reason the supplement was 'necessary' is the original LGNPC Ald'ruhn esp had too many liabilities. Originally many official dialog entries were altered and even moved creating tremendous potential for broken dialog strings, broken quests and difficult to recognize (the cause, not the effect) mod conflicts. These have been subsequently corrected in every instance that could be identified. Moreover it is challenging to work on a mod that one did not create. It made little sense to edit the original esp to such a radical extent as we envisioned for the Ald'ruhn supplement. This approach offered the additional advantage of allowing development in stages rather than all at once - particularly welcome when creating dialog for 127 NPCs.

Having written to the contrary, the LGNPC Ald'ruhn supplement is not necessary - it is a choice... a dream, really. We thought it would be nice if at the same time we made LGNPC Ald'ruhn error-free we make it actually 'playable'. Of course characterizing some of the content of LGNPC Ald'ruhn as 'unplayable' is very much a matter of taste. This is one of the obstacles to any substantial rewrite. Who am I to judge what is good and what is bad and what the community wants?

I have been the strongest advocate on the team for the rewrites of earlier installments. I felt it was the most efficient way to collectively address many of the concerns I identified earlier. It is not the best use of our time to proofread all of the dialog in a given town and then later rewrite it. It is not the best use of our time to fix bugs in existing quests only to draft new quests later. This is no more true than in Ald'ruhn. It give the LGNPC treatment for 127 NPCs, half at least with poor dialog and nonsensical quests. Then there were all the construction set flaws that resulted in dialog loops, broken official quests and conflicts with other mods. Many hours were spent fixing as many of these problems as could be found. However if more was to be done it made better sense to start over with a new esp - one without the inherent flaws of the original. That was the rationale behind the Ald'ruhn supplement. Certainly we could go back and remove all of the unnecessary changes made to NPCs, and filter wholes in the new dialog to allow official dialog to occasionally shine through. It would be considerable work and when finished it would have the same poor dialog and silly quests - the proverbial lipstick on a pig. That is why I favor rewrites.

For example: in the original LGNPC Ald'ruhn, Braynas Hlervu is a master alchemist who offers the player an impossible challenge to receive an outrageous gift. The challenge invites the player to reload the game repeatedly for fresh attempts until the frustrated player researches the answer in the construction set. That is not my idea of an immersive role-playing experience, especially when you consider that an official quest involving Braynas Hlervu characterize him as a poverty-stricken, retired egg miner. It gets better. After the player has completed the challenge, this destitute, old man offers the player the most valuable alchemy equipment not available in unmodded Morrowind. Still find all of this perfectly reasonable? The player retrieves the priceless apparatus in a barrel floating near the docks of Ebonheart. :rolleyes:

The Ald'ruhn supplement took a different turn with Braynas Hlervu. He is restored as a retired egg miner, old and living in poverty. He has seen many changes in Ald'ruhn over the years and is ready to complain about them as well as reminisce about the 'good o'l days'. Granted this profile is not as exciting as the one previously described, but I would argue that it is more plausible.

I might lose that argument - I read many things that make me wonder if I have any idea of what the community thinks reasonable or is otherwise valued. I admit that typos jar one's immersion in the game world and should be attended, but where is the outrage about poor characterization and mindless dialog - is not that just as disruptive to immersion? There is a hairdresser in Gnaar Mok - not in Balmora, not anywhere in Vivec, but there is one in Gnaar Mok. I do not know if it was meant as a joke, but whether or not it was it is equally absurd and inappropriate if the goal is to respect lore. In that same town the player need speak only thirty seconds on a subject to convince a hardened Camonna Tong member to renounce her violent, racist ways. Thirty seconds after that the player can lead her out of Nadene Rotheran's shack whereupon she is immediately at peace and one with the universe.

It makes me wonder if it really matters what we write - are people satisfied merely to read something different. More than once I have contemplated just sitting down at the keyboard and letting it fly stream of consciousness. Unencumbered by a particular personality or framed by a precise back-story I could type anything I want. Greeting: "I'm sorry if I am not very good company today - I just had to bury my favorite guar." Little Advice: "Don't let Lorburmol gro-Aglakh have any ash yam. It keeps him up all night with gas, and the rest of us up fighting for air." Little Secret: "I have six toes on my right foot." Actually that last one is not bad. Don't be surprised if you read in a future release. I know that is a bit of an exaggeration, but some existing dialog is little better than that.

Then there are the quests...

I recall recently reading someone's praise of our work - a commendation for our using existing resources by building a story around it and giving it meaning that it previously lacked. Naturally my thoughts turned to Ostar's brilliant integration of the Redoran of Marandus into the main Redoran quest line with six quests including a rival to the player's ascension in that Great House. While the details were sketchy I deduced that the poster was referring to the LGNPC Ald'ruhn quest to discover Aryni Orethi's missing sister. I knew it well since I had responded to bug reports and helped a number of players through that desperate search. After fixing the journal bug and adding some dialog clues in Seyda Neen the player had a tolerable chance of finding Inta's corpse in the bottom of a pool in the cavern of Addamasartus without having to cheat.

I was never a great admirer of that quest even after it was fixed. Find my sister, sister's body found, offer proof of death. It was reworked in the Ald'ruhn supplement so the player could follow meaningful clues through detailed dialog that lead the player throughout nearly half of Vvardenfell. When Inta is met, very much alive, and the player gives her sister an account of Inta's flight the quest need not end there. The player can assist Inta in a few quests of her own that eventually result in her relocation to a frontier settlement in western Vvardenfell and a happy, meaningful life.

Now some might argue that there is little difference between the original quest and the reworked one except in the former Inta is dead and in the latter she lives. Some players seem to pursue a quest as if it was a chore - just something to check off their to-do list. For them the art does not matter. However LGNPC is a dialog mod. We give NPC stories to tell, and a quest is just a story that unfolds through the player's actions. Some may not care about that, but I hope some of you do. Finding and helping Inta is the story. It is also the reward. Some will resent having less upon completing that quest than they had at its beginning. The quest does not offer a material reward - the reward is the experience. After all, why are we playing the game if not for enjoyment and entertainment? For any one who cares about such things, Aryni Orethi 'story' requires over three hundred new dialog entries to tell (that is more than is found in some of our early installments). The player is offered many choices with accommodation for poor decisions as well as the correct ones. If story is important to you then this will be a more satisfying treatment of Aryni Orethi than in the original LGNPC Ald'ruhn.

The fact that Aryni's original quest is celebrated instead of the new one (or Marandus' Redorans) suggests what is wanted. Certainly we can write simple, mindless quests along the usual themes: deliver this, kill that, escort me to there, but I would prefer to leave such things to others. Granted this is my first impulse - my view may soften in time and my standards relax, or maybe I will just cease to care anymore.


I believe my arguments resonate with some of you, and you will protest that what I propose is what you would welcome. However we cannot produce mods that will satisfy everyone's taste and I am reluctant to impose my own vision of Vvardenfell on the rest of the community. It would be different if it was my own mod, but I am a member of a team. We have to decide what we will put our energy into because we have been adrift for two long trying to do everything at once and accomplishing nothing as a result. There has been sound arguments against the LGNPC Ald'ruhn supplement and the like, and nothing offered in its defense. In the absence of any other data we should repair the bugs and correct the spelling in our existing installments.


As a member of the original Ald'ruhn team your perspective is particularly welcome. However, in my current role it falls to me to edit the work of our current writers (the very task I most wanted to avoid as a member of the team). Some can be very stubborn about having their dialog altered beyond what is dictated by basic proofreading.

Considering what made the cut I am grateful that I never had to read any of the rejected dialog.


That is not the most handsome reason for altering someone else's work. So it is only wrong if one gets caught? What sort of message are we sending the kids?


To answer your question: the original writers would know, and in the case of editing previously released installments any player that used the original might recognize the changes. However I think the more compelling reason to preserve the writer's original intention is respect for his or her work and person. The knowledge that I might not get caught makes the act of honoring the original work sincere.


Yes. However we are now discussing is dialog that has already been released. Presumably it had already gone editorial scrutiny so we are talking about editing the work of the original editors.


That is what happened more or less in the Ald'ruhn supplement. The only person who might have reason to complain about Wrye's update is Joe Stevens (oh, and the other guys that created their own update of LGNPC Seyda Neen). Joe has been very accommodating. That is his choice, and based on what he has written on the subject of modding I expect is would be Wrye's choice as well. However other writers might take a different view of the matter and they would be within their rights.


Any modder who has been around awhile knows this. About the only way a modder can know with certainty that someone is using his/her mod is to receive a complaint or bug report. However just because people have not said anything good about a mod I do not think we can jump to the assumption that they like it. One of the benefits of work-in-progress threads and open beta tests is that more feedback is forthcoming, but it is not for us.


As for cathedral versus parlor, it is less important which view I take than the view of the modder's whose work I might build upon. If they do not welcome such changes then it cannot and should not happen. I do not have to agree with their modding philosophy to respect and accept their decision. It seems as if it is not up to individuals - the world is either open or closed. Wrye determined it was closed, and that he declares is one of the reasons that he no longer mods for Morrowind.

Again you are writing of bugfixes when I was referring to 'significant' updates. Within Wrye's Levels of Modification elements of the Ald'ruhn supplement, and some of the work performed in other towns reaches as high (or low) as 'artistic destruction' - that sounds and is pretty serious. I think anyone is tolerant of (if not outright grateful for) everything up to that point. It is about altering an NPC's personality and replacing another writer's dialog that some people are apprehensive.


One of the reasons I have been reluctant to respond is I knew it would be very difficult to achieve without sounding resentful. I doubt that I appear to advantage in this rant. Perhaps I really am resentful. It is not a flattering picture, but it might be the truth. I have no wish to recount any cause for resentment either real or imagined. I want to stop obsessing about this can get back to what I enjoy - modding. One of the reasons we do not have work-in-progress threads and release several mods at the same time rather than as each becomes available is because the discussions they foster are distracting from our work. In some days if this matter is not revived, I may calm down enough to begin writing again. I have not made a decision about the more serious points under discussion, but I will... and more quickly if I have an opportunity for quiet reflection. Also understand that there is only so much we can accomplish in a certain amount of time. Just because you do not see an expansion of the Ald'ruhn supplement with our next updates does not mean it will never happen.


There is one part of this business that I regret above all. Please do not think me unaware or unappreciative of the long-standing support that the community has given to the LGNPC project. Many friends of the project have posted here this past week with advise, reassurance and unconditional support. My resentful expressions may make me appear ungrateful, but that is an emotional response. My rational self knows what is owed to you, and it would grieve me if you thought I did not value you or your encouragement. There have been misunderstandings that may have raised emotions, and I know I can have a playful form of expression that can intensify rather than defuse such situations. I have great admiration and respect for all of you who have offered your support of the project. Thank you.

I hope we can move forward now.

Honestly, your collective works are one of the four requisite mods that any new installation or system overhaul to my Morrowind receives. Loved yours (and Emma's) works so much it flavored the fanfic.

To echo most, don't stop. Just acknowledge that you've still got a perpetual fanbase ; )

Many bands can't even say that.

Thanks for the epic reply Cyrano - I felt my speechcraft skill increase a level just reading it

It would seem the only way to not overwirite another modder's effort who has contributed to LGNPC is to redo from the start and call it version 2.

I'm more for keeping NPC's in character as per any official Bethesda vision. I hear you regarding the discussion on the Cammona Tong quest as we have discussed something similar before - though my belief is there has to be a balance between keeping an NPC in character versus pushing along a story or quest - dialogue in gaming tends to be the literary equivalent of the way Reader's Digest condensed novels - there's a balance between exposition and getting the player to fill the gaps in with their imagination and get on with the action.

Was thinking of that uber alchemist quest you mentioned and comparing that to one Bethesda did - the lady who you find her lost invoice for pillows and she gives you a pillow that gives you a restful night's sleep - in roleplaying that means more than many swords

Please pass thanks onto the LGNPC team for so much gaming satisifaction received

Thanks for expanding on the situation, apologies for dragging out the discussion of what are apparently delicate matters & distracting you from the actually important modding component of the project.


That they shouldn't trust faceless strangers on the interwebs?

I think my point was there's no way to know who wrote/thought what, as all the material was written for & contributed to the LGNPC collective. IMO the IP ultimately resides with the LGNPC collective & the LGNPC team are free to tweak, rewrite & discard components as necessary so long as they acknowledge the input of previous authors. I don't see it as a matter of what one can get away with, I don't see any wrong doing in the first place.

Frankly if you're completely rewriting material without reference to the original submissions as described for the Ald'ruhn supplement I see even less cause for concern. How is rewriting unedifying LGNPC dialog any more disrespectful than rewriting gamesas dialog, which is the whole point of the project?

I would be perfectly happy for my Andrelo submissions to be rewritten, they're unlikely to break immersion but are hardly engaging & the associated quest would certainly fall into the simple, mindless category.


Perhaps, but isn't it equally unjustified to jump to the conclusion that they don't like it or don't use it? Personally I would assume that people are happy with the mod until they complain, I certainly was.


I would suggest that the responses in this thread represent arguments in the defence of rewritting older LGNPC mods. I for one don't perceive any significant IP/disrespect issue & would be delighted to encounter more immersive & compelling quests & dialog of the sort proposed.

Hopefully equilibrium will be restored shortly & you can return to what you do best, writing snappy dialog mods.

I agree with OldeCow69. A group project really isn't the same as an individual mod - contributing to a project with a history like LGNPCs should imply permission to modify the work as the project continues. And I'm certainly more interested in good stories than in mindless courier/kill/etc quests, too.

---

Edit: Cyrano, thanks for the explanation - I was more or less expecting either nothing at all or something that basically translates as "I'm not telling you my reasons and I don't care if this annoys you", which tends to be the usual response to this sort of thing. Knowing that you're committed to doing the best job you can certainly makes me happier with the end result regardless of whether it's what I'd prefer or not (not that I doubted it at all in the first place, but I guess I needed a reminder).

Just to get to the point on kill/deliver/find vs. a crafted questline, I prefer the movie vs. book anology. Movies are typically under two hours and rather straightforward, while to read a book is an investment of time far greater and yet provides more depth not just from the time investment and length, but that narrative can be crafted and not delivered in chunks. Some may like to just sit down for an hour and feel that the quest is complete, and some feel that a greater depth is more rewarding. To each their own, but I'll take a book over a movie any day.

Uh, I failed in my roll vs. wall of text.

As for indifference - you have to ask the community for feedback directly, and in its own thread, if you want to get some opinions.

Even if you have the most awesomest mod in existence, only a very small fraction of the people who use it will actually communicate with you. You'll see a mod with tens of thousands of downloads, but only a handful of comments and votes. You'll see a RELz or WiPz thread that has been viewed thousands of times, but is only three pages long with responses from less than 20 members. I've had a mod up on PES for a year, and though it has been downloaded a few hundred times, not one person has voted or commented.

It's the same thing with polls. The number of people who post their results and/or discuss the poll are far, far fewer than the number of poll votes.

This isn't just a phenomenon with the modding community, it is something that pervades most of society. Voter turnout at even the most significant of many a country's elections (barring compulsory elections) is typically half or less of eligible voters.

You have to go with what you feel is the right thing to do for your mod. And remember: the people who speak up against it may seem like they are greater in quantity than the people who like it, but really it is over-representation; people with a complaint are apt speak up more often than if they are happy/content with what is going on.

I think "cyran0 post" adds a +2 to patience. You might have to reroll.

I went to bed last night after posting with the intention of not returning to this thread for a few days - you can guess how that resolution fared. Not to post now would appear ungrateful to those of you who have taken the trouble to read and reply to my tirade. I feel much better than I expected. Perhaps it is the cathartic effect of yelling at one's friends. I am glad I returned - your replies made me smile, and more than in the places you might expect.


Just so we are clear on this point, the LGNPC project is the collaborative effort of many members of our community. It is not primarily the work of an individual like Emma's releases (although Emma is very generous in her thanks to those who have helped make 'her' mods possible).


Agreed. Not everyone cares for such quests, but there is no shortage of mods that add more to kill if that is what is wanted. We like to add a few 'feel good' quests for karmic balance.

You are correct that sometimes it is necessary to limit the conversation, but the result should still be credible. Perhaps instead of actual dialog we could add something like, "You speak with Selvura Andrano at length about her views when she was younger and her former friendship with Andilo Thelas" to provide a sense that a real transformation could be taking place. We will work on it.


Perfect!

On a serious note, the points you make are compelling - I anticipated some of your comments as I wrote my own. I might have written your reply for you, but I thought my post was already long enough. I should have added to what I wrote before that the Ald'ruhn supplement credits every writer who worked on the original.


...And we prefer to create stories so I am confident this will work out to our mutual satisfaction.


No one would doubt you since you managed to wade through my epic post.

I have echoed something like your comparison of books and movies in the past. Reading requires that the reader create the scene and interpret the meaning for him/herself. It demands a greater effort than merely watching a scene being played out, but it allows the reader to create the scene that seems most reasonable in his/her mind - it is inherently more satisfying. Good movies, like a good play, can still stimulate reflection in the mind of the viewer making the experience more dynamic, but some movies and some movie-goers fall far short of that potential.


It is the fallen in our struggle that remind us of the importance of what we are fighting for.

Like OldeCow, you make many valid points. What you write about work-in-progress threads is certainly true. They tend to have a small, but loyal following for whose sake the mods seems to be written. We do not want that. It is not that we do not value the input of the community - otherwise this thread would not have taken the turn that it did. But there are so many concerns in assembling the dialog for an entire town that impacts official content to the degree that LGNPC mod do. The details are better managed behind closed doors.


Is it a high roll or low roll that is successful? If it the former than I think my posts add a -2 (if not more) to the chance of success.

I thank you again, everyone, for your thoughtful comments and patience with both my long posts and LGNPC's progress. I think it is time to advance a little of the latter.

Not to sound pushy, but I did make an offer for my editorial services. I like the LGNPC mods and I have come across dialog that I thought was out of place (spaceships by Irga anybody?) If you don't require another editor, that's fine, just know that I'll gladly submit any work if needed for any of the existing mods or any of the new ones. I'd really like to see the current ones updated and fixed and the new ones out, especially Ebonheart, if only to see my work out there. Keep up the good work and remember that if it starts to become too much like work, it's time to take a break.

Aye, I think I'm a pretty good editor, too. Want see some of my lab reports? :hehe: I also wrote some gosh-darn good papers for my Reading Poetry class this semester, too. If you want to dump some dialog on me, you know how to PM me.

I have a large vocabulary and I wield grammar with ease. :toughninja:

I have not played the mod cause im not playing the game. Somehow I feel out of place posting here but well i decided to be supportive (is this a word?), nothing more, nothing less. Im a bit surprised to see Cyrano pushed to write wall explanations when i know he prefer maintain a silent presence while modding. I dont know exactly which is the initial facts that starts this discussion, I'm not here to make a real opinion about the current state of things (the out of way feeling its growing, i must go now) but as a modder an someone that follows trough time the advancements of the LGNPC mods i only can say bravo.
Bravo Cyrano cause the project its a very wicked and complex and to add more its a collaborative work???. I share your point of view about how the quest must had a meaning to the game, stories, feelings....seeing how you write about your emotions im feel confident that i will found something interesting when i will going to play the mod in a future.

P.D.: If you need someone with an horrid english speech, a real outlander that dont know how to express the basics in the island common language you can count on me, i can do this work perfectly.

As the main (but not sole) writer of many LGNPC mods (PAX Redoran, Vivec Redoran, Indarys Manor, Tel Uvirith, Secret Masters) as well as Less Generic Nerevarine, Tribunal, and Bloodmoon, I would like to chime in. I never had any expectation that my writing and vision was sancrosact. Besides the fact that Cyrano greatly, greatly improved the mods I worked on with his editing and contributions, LGNPC is truly a team effort and an LGNPC writer should expect changes to their work from the team to improve it and/or catch flaws/bugs/etc., in their dialogue/quests. Cyrano as the head of the LGNPC team makes those decisions, and the fact he tries to respect their original writers vision while making his decisions make me trust his judgment even more.

So in other words, I vote for modifying previous mods to improve their quality and lore-friendliness.

Ah, there's that can of worms I opened!

And although I do enjoy me a good lynching, I can see how some of the folks around here might not. If you want my opinion on where the community as a whole would prefer you focus your efforts beyond this point, I would assume that the primary goal should be resolving any issues with existing project - at least the bigger bugs, like breaking of official quests - before introducing any new ones. That just seems like a no-brainer to me, really.

The "indifferent response" may also be simply the result of people not having really played enough into the new updates to have much to say about them. LGNPC mods aren't like my game improvements mod, where people can simply look over all of the listed changes in the readme and form an immediate opinion of them. Added content like this takes more time for good feedback - something I would assume that you of all people would know.



Hmm... very troubling, indeed.

I agree with your statements. I agree because, in any case, my judgment will always come down in favor of game balance. Both disproportionately large quest rewards and quests that encourage save scumming are things that I frown upon, especially when combined, and I have gone to great lengths in my own mod to eliminate any sources of it in the game proper.

As I said above, I believe your primary goal should be addressing outstanding issues in your existing plugins before focusing on new content. Another thing I want to point out is that it you need to be aware of the LGNPC Project's place in the mod community. There are many different roles filled by many different mods, and one of the biggest mistakes a mod can make is branching out into roles it was not meant to fulfill. The LGNPC Project serves to further enrichen the land of Vvardenfell by ensuring that people always have something more to say to me than just "Welcome to Seyda Neen! I like swords!" One of the absolute best ways to make (and keep) a game fun and interesting is to constantly make the player feel that there is far more to the world around her than what meets her eyes, and NPC dialogue is one of the key methods of achieving that goal. Quests can keep things interesting, yes, and the occasional reward will even make them feel as if they aren't a complete waste of your time, but you must remember that the LGNPC Project is not an epic adventure mod, and it really shouldn't try to be one. It's window dressing. And trying to make it much more than that would be like trying to make an entire cake out of icing.

Of course, you already knew that. Which is why I am pleased that you're the one in charge of this whole thing. Sooner or later, you'll stop worrying about what other people think and just do what you think is best for the LGNPC Project. I eagerly await that day.

:D

Others have read and attented to the rest of that epic post, but that bit just made me smile, so I had to reply.

Its a matter of subjective vs. objective. With any given mod I think most of end users are happy to offer feedback and help with technical matters such as typos, bugs, etc. These are objective matters. We might even feel safe in offering our subjective opinion on something smaller and more immediate, such as a new model or object, clothing, etc. But when it comes to the overall vision of the mod, there is much more of a take it or leave it attitude. We've now gone deep into the subjective and most of us feel that its not our place to start voicing how we would have done things differently.

So yeah, as someone else said, if you want to gauge the communities opinion on the grand vision of the project, its best to ask specifically. Otherwise, you can bet the majority of feedback will be typos, broken quests and the like.

You know, in a way it *does* make sense. A hairdresser in Balmora or Vivec is something so natural that it becomes not worth mentioning. If there's one characterized, all right, if there's not, no big deal, we just assume that there is one anyway. But having a not-so-bad hairdresser living in Gnaar Mok is a matter of provincial pride, something to boast to a stranger: see, we have our very own hairdresser, just like in big cities! Come and look, she's real! She could go to Balmora and reap big drakes, but instead she chose to live among us and make us hairdo. See my hair? it's her work. No, you don't pay proper attention, TOUCH IT, DAMMIT!

eltrane: Bingo. That's the essence of it.

EDIT: I don't remember whether it was mentioned or not, but in LGNPC Indarys Manor Garila Vedas' "Bitter Coast" line contains an "x" in the action box that crashes the game.

Also, her "Boots of the Apostle" topic is filtered for the inventory item instead of journal, so she keeps informing PC what he isn't asking anymore if Boots are tucked in a trophy room.

In LGNPC Vivec Redoran, Varona Nelas has a Greeting 5 and Background line that activate topics "Rimilla" and "Varona Nelas", but Rimilla is only activated if player visits Assumanu by the custom JO_FDToken quest and not by vanilla IL_MaidenToken. Also, returning the glove to Ilmeni Dren results in JO_FDToken quest reported no matter which quest led to it.

In Pax Redoran, the "Bero Hortator" quest is realized through inserted lines in B6_BeroHort quest, and a separate quest JO_BeroSupport, but only the latter seems to be used. Therefore B6_BeroHort must be dirty.
Also, JO_BeroSupport recreates Garding's duel in case that player becomes a Hortator without being a member of House Hlaalu and doing this duel through HH_BeroSupport. But if player becomes Hortator as a member of no House at all and then joins Hlaalu *afterwards*, he'll have to repeat the duel (and if Garding is dead, it creates a bug).

In LGNPC Ald-Ruhn, Manis Virmaulese, Gragus Lleran, and Arsyn Salas have lines as if they were regular NPCs (the latter - just Greeting 9 instead of a full set). Whereas the former is a scripted guard in Mages Guild that only appears to attack you during Thieves Guild mission, and who others are scripted Morag Tong assassins sent for Athyn Sarethi life. None of them has any chance to speak their mind.

In LGNPC Ald-Ruhn, max_lgnpc_raryn_q2 quest looks sort of incomplete. If you refuse to accept Raryn's "peace" offer, he will repeat it again and again each time you talk to him as long as you have the incriminating note in your inventory. So you can refuse, kill his thugs, then listen to his threats again and again (even though he can't fulfill them anymore) and then finally accept the offer and take the reward. One might think that after being exposed, a spy would do wise to disappear ASAP. Also there's no way to report his treason to anyone. Max_lgnpc_raryn_q1 quest to depose Nalvyna Sarinith doesn't seem to produce any results as well.

Hmm, I wonder: Miner Arobar has two daughters, but what about his wife? There are no more Arobars in game except an occasional bandit in a cave, and no other women in the Manor except servants and guards.

:foodndrink: Just passing by to say how much I am enjoying the new Redoran quests... now back to look for that prototype arrow! :bolt: :celebration:

Does this mod have problems with mods like Rise of House Telvanni and the expansion mods of Tel Uvirith or other mods like that?

I prefer this kind of quest/story, where the process of doing it is a satisfying experience (whether for good or ill). FedExing for minor profit is boring as hell. Whenever I play a game like this multiple times, I find myself avoiding the simple FedEx quests more and more and trying to find something interesting and involving to do. This is exactly the type of story-oriented questing that I want to create in mods. I have some grand visions for several mods I'd like to make after I develop some more skill, and their purpose would be to present a story where the player has to figure out what's going on and then decide if/how they want to be involved in order to steer events in a particular direction.

On a side note, I love interesting and quirky characters. The pillow-loving lady in Balmora is a good, though simple, example. In Oblivion, the crazy paranoid Bosmer in Skingrad and the Orc who murders the Imperial language are priceless treasures. I'd like to see a few more of these sprinkled around Vvardenfell.

Also, (FYI) when working on my current mods (The Traveller's Guide to Dining), the first thing I do is read all the LGNPC dialogue to make sure that what I create either works with, complements, or at least doesn't interfere with whatever LGNPC does for the particular NPCs that I'm affecting.

Finally, Cyran0, you are exactly the right person for the job. Keep up the good work.

I completely agree with Alaisiagae. For myself, if I truly love a mod, I'll comment and rate. If I find problems, I'll leave a comment. If I don't particularly care for a mod I don't bother voicing an opinion because that's totally subjective and I wouldn't even know what kind of rating to give. ("Well, it worked, but I thought it was boring."?) And there are lots of mods that I haven't played through enough to have an opinion yet. I really like the flavor the LGNPC mods give to the game. Yes, the grammar problems annoy me, but I prefer to have it with the warts than not have it at all.

Honestly, I'd view silence as approval. For one thing, I've always worried that a mere 'good job' post is a bit 'star spammy'. I especially feel that when a project has such a good reputation as LGNPC and when the writers are known to quickly move heaven and earth to fix a reported issue, that there is no cause for self-doubt (grin).

Do keep up the fine work!

These are some of my favourite mods, and have been since their beginning. Thanks for all the hard work!



I, too, fully support storyline-based quests that make sense rather than FedEx quests.

I also fully support the rewriting of dialogue so that characters have an interesting and consistent character, rather than a collection of random replies. Six toes indeed!

And just as an extra, I fully support rational dialogue and quests. I mean the kind that are not random, or without clues, or require messing around in the console or the construction set to finish.

My 'silence' these years has been my approval - overwhelmingly so.