Arguments for = It would add more options to the game, would be fun according to how I want to play, it would be completely optional.

Arguments against = I can't imagine being able to play as one because my concept of an RPG is limited to interaction with normal NPCs.

point 1 is a lame option fot it imo. I much rather have good playible options than a thoroughly lame one that doesn't.

point 2 completely misses the points the arguments against are making. You spend x ammount of hours, studying, prayind, and making sacrifices to become a lich and suddenly anytime you go near the towns and cities you get attacked by town guards, addventurers and other braver members of society. Don't know about you but that would personally start to become annoying after a while for me.

problem, kalle, noone likes a lich, noone hangs out with a lich, a lich is not like a vampire-- you cant disguise it.

for that reason it doesnt matter if it clearly states its a permanent change becuase noone will want to talk to you in the game, and most will either try to kill you or just run away. so either this "fine option" turns into a straight path to world massacre, or a boring path to having rabbits as your best friends... and i would bet they would run from a lich as well.

aalllso, where are people getting the "stages to lichdom" there are no stages, its either your a lich or your not, you cant become MORE undead once your already there, all you can do is refine your powers (yeah, ive read alot and havent seen anything in canon, so if youve got a link, id be happy to read it), and after gaining the huge amount of power and knowlege to become a lich in the first place, thats kind of pointless.

if people want to use the canon to justify bieng a lich, too bad, the only reason any char int he game has become a lich is because they are evil and want to be immortal. so aside from immortality and the power gained from becoming a lich, its pointless-- it breaks the game, you cant join factions, you cant do the main story line, you cant trade, you cant talk to people (yes, even necromancers, and certainly the Mage's Guild would be very disinclined to speak to a lich). so its a bad idea.
-- but then again, dont mind my logic.. people in support will probably find some reason to vote for it anyway.

Again you are blind to the fact that some of us want to play as a lich. The fact that you don't should matter at all. I don't like the thieves guild, does that mean they should remove it from the game? NO!! It's about choices and options.

Here are the two options regarding lichdom :

If Lichdom is included, you won't have to play as one.

If lichdom isn't included nobody can play as one.

Now do you see the difference? It is a single player, offline game series based upon freedom of choice. You want to limit everyone elses freedoms because of how you choose to play. I want more options for eveyone according to how they wish to play.

So they should spend time, and programing resources towards something that most players don't want or care about? And don't even give me the 'But look at the polls!' argument, that doesn't reflect every player of the tes series, just those who answered the poll. Most other people (including me) think they should do well whats allready there and what makes those things run well.

No, I suppose they should follow your goose stepping ways and just make the game as bland and generic as possible :rolleyes:

Wow, I'm extremely impressed Neuro... I never met some one who completely missed the point as much as you do. My arguments against is based on the fact that they could make the game (outside of necros and lichdom) more interesting by focusing on what they did well and making it better and looking at what they did badly do better. Your'e saying that they should divert money, time, and other precious from the important aspects of the game just to appease a fringe element of gamers?

Fringe? So how many people did you sample in your scientific poll of every TES gamer on Earth?

Also, adding more content is never a bad thing. Just by adding content you do not have to take away from anything else.

You keep wanting to make every player's decision for them. I want players to decide on their own. I stand for freedom of choice, you stand for control.

So they should spend time, and programing resources towards something that most players don't want or care about? And don't even give me the 'But look at the polls!' argument, that doesn't reflect every player of the tes series, just those who answered the poll. Most other people (including me) think they should do well whats allready there and what makes those things run well.

I say lichdom should be possible, and I propose this system:
Firstly:
The transformation. For this your going to need to get notes, books, etc, that either completely or incompletely discuss the rituals for becoming a Lich. (We can't expect the player to develop the process all on their own, that's too tedious and labor intensive) This will require very high intelligence and magicka stats, as you gotta understand what your reading. From these notes your character will begin to build a ritual. (Labor intensive and tedious) You must gather supplies, do research, perform trial runs, and more. After completing the ritual you must survive gestation period (Based on the quality of your research and all that good stuff, poor rituals take forever good rituals a week or so). During this period you are stronger physicially and magickally, and your soul is stored in a device of some sort. (You must keep this on your person, just like the DB quest) During this period your body will become undead, and you will notice early signs of decay. The skin will dry, hair will fall out, the skin will retreat from the nails and scalp, making it appear as if your nails and hair grew, and you will start to suffer stiffness that hurts your physical stats (Rigor Mortis!). At the end of the transformation your soul returns to your new lich body. As you age, you will become more and more skeletal, and overtime sacrifice some aspects of your physical prowess in exchange for more magickal abilities.

The abilities:
Depending on the quality of the ritual, you will either gain little or very high boosts to all magickal stats, and will gain access to some early Lich abilities (you can levitate with virtually no magicka cost, spell costs are lowered across the board, you gain several new spells in various schools). As you progress you can develop more powers through study, practice, and experimentation on your form (you can hurt yourself temporarily doing the latter two). These powers include telepathy, teleportation, and others. You can also devour the souls of other Liches in order to gain their powers.

The Normies:
Now how are the people going to react to you? Well the layman will run like hell, and the braver ones and fools may attack you. If you are seen in a city, you will have twelve hours to kill all the witnesses of your glory before the city doubles the watch, locks the place down, and assembles a team of warriors to put you down. All other cities will hear of this, and increase their guard strength by 1/3. Also, if you have established any cults in the city, they are 20% more likely to be caught (more on that later). If you can avoid this team of warriors for 2 months (either by always being on the move or creating a lair that hides you from them) the city you were caught in drops from a doubled guard size to a guard size of 1 1/3. (Or their normal men plus enough men to equal a third of their normal guard). all other cities drop back to normal. The lockdown in the city you were cuaght in will also end.
Meta-gaming:
So, besides zapping, what else is there? You will be able to establish groups in the various cities and dungeons of the land who will act as your operatives. You can establish criminal orginizations, necromantic cults, brothels, userer's, skooma rings, and more. You can aslo have your operatives infiltrate existing groups. Now, where do you get these people? Well, as time goes on you'll attract (or conquer) necromancers, criminals, and the rich and powerful (as you become more of a known unkown, you will attract those people among the higher classes who require your powers or resources, they will be in your debt if you help them) and more. These people can then establish cult's or other groups and cities, at which point they will begin to assemble the orginization (with you giving htem their prime directives). You can also use members of existing groups that you've attracted to your service to get your foot in the door as it were, and begin to corrupt them. THe rich and powerful can also do this for you. As time goes on you might even be able to stage a rebellion in a city!

Say in one city there is a fight over succession [cliche], the combatant in the weaker position contacts you for help, and you use your resources in that city to back his rebellion. Afterwards, you become an influential player in his court, and are even allowed to walk exposed in the castle. (You've infested the city so much that the knowledge of your lichdom won't leave the castle) With this influence you manipulate regional policies, and in general make more money and gain more resources from the region then your illicit orginizations ever could have given you. You can then use your new position of power in the city to better manipulate provinicial politics from behind the scenes.

So the polls aren't valid, but your hunch not based on facts is?

I'd think most of the casual gamers, who are so despised here, but are millions in numbers, would love to be a lich, atleast for a while.

Slightly tweaking things vs. adding new features isn't that simple. It's what drove so many old Halo fans away from the series. Next to nothing is new or changed. As good it sounds to have better this and that, we will never have perfect AI or physics.

Casual gamers will onlly play until they get bored, and the process of becoming a lich, is a boring time consuming process.

What hunch? Is it a hunch that this poll doesn't include every gamer? I think not. Is it a hunch that I pointed out that the poll is in fact exclusive? It is not.


trure, casual gamers make up a bulk of the viewers, but that does not neccessarilly mean that gamesas should focus on them. Casual gamers will onlly play until they get bored, and the process of becoming a lich, is a boring time consuming process. The bulk of serious gamers would rather see the rest of the game polished, rather see gamesas waste time and resources on something fringe gamers will mod in anyhow.


I thought what drove Halo fans away was the fact that it was crap all arround.... and thats what I hope will be avoided in TES V.

here are 2 good reasons to forget the idea.

1. Its irreversable... dont try to talk about a godly cure, there is no precident, and honestly no reason to start one. They are despised, even by necromancers.

2. You can barter or trade or go into town as a lich. It breaks the game right there, there is no point.

problem, kalle, noone likes a lich, noone hangs out with a lich, a lich is not like a vampire-- you cant disguise it.

if people want to use the canon to justify bieng a lich, too bad, the only reason any char int he game has become a lich is because they are evil and want to be immortal. so aside from immortality and the power gained from becoming a lich, its pointless-- it breaks the game, you cant join factions, you cant do the main story line, you cant trade, you cant talk to people (yes, even necromancers, and certainly the Mage's Guild would be very disinclined to speak to a lich). so its a bad idea.
-- but then again, dont mind my logic.. people in support will probably find some reason to vote for it anyway.

Wasn't it mentioned earlier that there are mods to play as a lich? I'm fairly certain there was one. So that invalidates your argument right here. If they don't include it than you can play as it whenever someone releases the mod for it.

What hunch? Is it a hunch that this poll doesn't include every gamer? I think not. Is it a hunch that I pointed out that the poll is in fact exclusive? It is not.

I thought what drove Halo fans away was the fact that it was crap all arround.... and thats what I hope will be avoided in TES V.

And what exactly does Lichdom bring to the table? Disease resistance and increased magicka? A skilled and determined player can get those simply through putting forth the effort to exploit whats allready there. That's what enchantment and potion making is for.

Bah! I don't see your point at all. Wanna add more options? I'm all for it. But as long as they're options that adds to the substance of the game overall. I wanna see, like most others, expanded, more diverse quest lines, more numerous and better fleshed out guilds, better combat and magic, more options to play a better game... any of that sound bland to you? At all?

And what exactly does Lichdom bring to the table? Disease resistance and increased magicka? A skilled and determined player can get those simply through putting forth the effort to exploit whats allready there. That's what enchantment and potion making is for.

:shakehead:

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/whatis/.

Bah! I don't see your point at all. Wanna add more options? I'm all for it. But as long as they're options that adds to the substance of the game overall. I wanna see, like most others, expanded, more diverse quest lines, more numerous and better fleshed out guilds, better combat and magic, more options to play a better game... any of that sound bland to you? At all?

And what exactly does Lichdom bring to the table? Disease resistance and increased magicka? A skilled and determined player can get those simply through putting forth the effort to exploit whats allready there. That's what enchantment and potion making is for.

The oppurtunity to create a necromantic cult that you use to influence the world around you.

Darth, your ideas are the best so far. It would make TES the best game ever if you could pull political strings from behind the scenes. Maybe even become the public lead of a town/province/empire.