I don't get the "undead army" bit. The vast majority of undead are mindless puppets, they don't CARE if you're "one of them." There are generally two sides; one is some spirit clinging to the world out of unfinished business, hate, lingering magic power, whatever. They have zero reason to somehow be subservient or sympathetic to other undead. You're a human being...if you encounter a human stronger than you, do you just drop to the ground and yell "Command me!"? The other type are those created by necromancers. They're like smelly golems, animated to do the specific bidding of whoever created them. They'll look at a lich and decide whether or not its an enemy, as put forth by its creator, and that's about it.

Now, a lich will presumably be very good at necromancy. That's how they became a lich in the first place. They'll be skilled at creating them, and if possible, claiming control of them over the previous control of another necromancer. But there's no reason for undead to flock like groupies.

A lich's soul is in the lich! It's not in some bottle waiting to get crushed :facepalm: . And no, I don't think it's cool having dragon peon a pawn to some lesser being. And not all liches are undead jerks. Even Mannimarco (the real DF one) did not have plans to destroy/enslave the world, even though he was one of the strongest beings in the TES universe, pretty amoral, and was a BA with dancers all around him and partied a lot. Hell, he even did interviews and didn't kill the person interviewing him.

Like the Order of the Dragon I think.

The army is created by the lich.

Mannimarco was extremely BA, but not all liches are gonna be like him. Mannimarco was a cl[censored], he might have been classy, but he was still an [censored]. And taking one fortress to settle down in isn't "enslaving the world". And just because Mannimarco wasn't chaotic stupid, doesn't mean he wasn't evil.

Truthfully, i liked everythng but the dragon guarding your item. Having minions seems like it could happen, but what would they do?

Eh, the Dragon could be substituted with anything really.

For example, if you wanted to make a magicka potion, but didn't have the ingredients, you could ask your minion to go and try and find some, if the minion is human. Depending on the ingredient, there'd be a percent chance the minion would suceed/fail/die. Another thing is sending them off to find gold and/or artifacts like Fast Eddie from the Morrowind telvanni quests. You could simpy ask them to guard a place, to follow you, to train, to create undead, etc. I'd like there to be quest lines with some minions, for example, appointing a second in command who you can talk to about expanding your fortress/lair/etc and commanding your humans minions en masse. Really, the possibilities are endless.

Then, there's undead minions. Obviously, they aren't smart enough to find ingredients and artifacts, so I think they would be best served as guards for your lair, or troops to follow you around. Of course, you could also assign undead into squads operated by a necromancer, which would be very handy if large scale battles are an option in TES 5.

Now, I talk a lot about guarding one's lair, this would be because at random times, thieves would come looking for your loot, mages for your knowledge, heroes to destroy you and your phylactery, and bands of adventurers looking for everything Your guards would have to deal with these, of course, or you could deal with them yourself. I think it would make for some very fun gameplay.

Arg! I am the Walrus, there is no use to destroy the damn phylactery once one becomes a lich! The soul goes back to the lich once the ritual is complete, and the phylactery becomes a mundane item again.

This,remember Walrus this isn't DnD.

How does being a lich in TES even work, and what is the phylactery's purpose if it doesn't keep your soul?
The stuff I'm used to (outside of TES) is remove your soul from your body and permanently bind it to some random object, while being strong willed and powerful enough to let your consciousness survive the process without fading or going insane from the permanent entrapment in a foreign object. From there you can magically possess and alter your old body, or any other living or dead body, animated object or whatever you can control, as long as your mind is strong enough. You won't have to care about damage or decay of your body, as it only serves as a vehicle for your mind, and you can repair it, as long as your spiritual connection to it is not severed. If the body gets destroyed, who cares, you can create another one with loyal or mind controlled servants, or directly trough your magic.
If the object holding your soul is destroyed, your soul is gone and you are done for real, unless you manage to "copy" your soul into another object, and somehow suppress the consciousness of this copy (no desire to make your own rival as long as you live), or you have another object or body ritually prepared for a complete and instant "emergency possession".
If someone can tell me how this is done in TES and what is possible and what is not, or if you can link texts, please do. It would remove misunderstandings and make further speculations and discussions a bit easier.

Sadly,we don't have enough information on how to become a lich,except for thishttp://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/path_transcendence.shtml

There's very little documentation on liches in TES, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Path_of_Transcendence being one of them. From what I remember seeing (can't go digging for other tidbits at the moment) there's no "one right way" to do it. It's basically just an extremely dangerous and difficult process, and different mages may find different ways of achieving it. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon%3a%44raugr_Lord_Aesliip, for example, could probably be considered similar to a lich, as a still-intelligent undead being retaining the same mind it had in life (unlike "common" undead which are more reanimated puppets), who apparently made himself undead and retained his significant magical powers. It's doubtful that he was a worshipper of Mannimarco.

So, what happens to your soul probably varies with what you DO with it, and the specific methods used to obtain undeath. One lich may exist as a ghostly spirit that can simply inhabit a new body, while another may remain tied to their body and have the spirit go wherever it goes when it's destroyed.

I'd like to point out that there's a high chance that becoming a lich can fail due to lack of the right information. I'd like to point out the writer of "Path of Transcendance" died horribly before he ever became a Lich. He might have had it wrong and died anyway. I mean, it's not like Mannimarco goes around telling everyone he meets how to become a lich, so this guy obviously figured this stuff out on his own. And even if tests and research were done, he still could have been very, very, very, wrong. I mean. just look at all the mindless animals called liches that are running around en masse in your nearest alyeid city. Since they don't have the intelligence to form coherent speechh during combat, and since they're kinda weak for the specifications of a lich. So I think they are attempts to become a lich gone wrong. Very, very, very wrong.

Due to my above conclusion, while I believe there are no specifics on whether the phylactery does exist, there is nothing that stops it from existing. And until more clarified lore is available, I'll maintain that a phylactery is a permanent part of the process of becoming a lich.

If liches were made into TESV I would love for them to base it of the lich part of this modhttp://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=7902This one seems like the most lore accurate of the posably process to lichdom IMO.

Personally, I prefer, and many of my ideas are based off of, the Morrowind lichcraft mod "Lichcraft". ATM a download isn't working. I loved how the phylactery was handled in it.

Well, it would be nce to have minions and servants in TES V, but this should not be tied only to lichdom. I mean, as a master of any guild/faction/jouse/whatever, you should have some people following you. They tried this in Oblivion, and while the idea was nice, it did not work out too well.

As far as random attacks on your stronghold go, I'm not too sure it would be a good thing. I mean, I wish to go around adventuring without fearing that someone will come to my house and steal my treasures. But if you could trigger those attacks yourself and could controle when they appear, then it might work, although I'm not too usre I would use the option regularly.



Well, in TES you meet several liches and have to kill some of them. And never ever there was a phylactery involved, so I guess we can say that at the very least in the majority of case if not in all of them, teh phylactery becomes useless after the proces of becoming a lich is finished. It is true that the lore would need a lot of clarification at this point, but it is a good thing I think as the devs have pretty free hands in the metter.

Well, if you hire good guards, your precious loot won't be a problem. That's the whole point really. And triggering the attacks is just way to artificial for me, because I'm a roleplayer.

Please name the liches.

The only two sucessful liches you can actually meet are Mannimarco in Daggerfall, and That dude under the temple in Morrowind. You have to kill the Morrowind guy. If you were refering to the mindless beasts in Oblivion and in the dungeon below the temple, then I'd diagree. I think they are failed liches.

Anyway, we don't know if the one REAL lich he had to kill, simply won't reanimate wherever he stored his phylactery. We only killed him for a piece of hi equipment essential to the quest, we didn't need to wipe him out forever.

I assume that the soul is still essential for existence, or at least for consciousness, so the lich is still bound to it in some way. Also, soultraps still work in the games. I try to make something from what I know. Please correct me if something is not right.

Every mortal inevitably loses his soul upon death. A lich simply moves his soul at least partially into a vessel, and "kills" his body at a controlled rate. If the body is (un-)dead, it cannot lose a soul anymore, but usually cannot hold an intact soul either, it is basically only an object. The ritual keeps the soul somewhat merged to the body, wich allows it to be fully reintegrated into the body. The soul of the lich is then tied to the body. The lich would try to keep the body as functional as necessary. He cannot die mortal deaths, but completely destroying his body would end his existence, and soultraps should do the job just fine too.
Many lichs are weakened or insane from the ritual or the unlife, and easier to deal with. But some master necromancers, that where prepared, strong enough and knew what they were doing, were able to fully preserve their personalities and powers. Those are the real great liches, that could deal with pesky heroes before they even know they are in the same province.

Just being a lich wouldn't increase your magical skills at all, the transformation could even damage them. Your magical skills would already need to be unbelievable high to even attempt becoming a lich and survive. But being undead would remove the fragility of the usual mage character, so you can submit fully to your arcane studies (maybe the maximums for all mental skills and attributes can be doubled). Strength, endurance and fatigue wouldn't play a big role anymore. If you still care about those stats, you can alter them trough magic. You don't eat, breath, sleep or bleed, and poisons, cold and many other status effects wouldn't have any effect on you. You could cast spells (maybe only healing or teleportation spells to escape) even without hitpoints and a disabled body, as long as it is not destroyed and your soul is not trapped.
Otherwise you can interact with everyone mostly normally, as long as you keep your body fresh, use good disguises or illusion spells, or only interact with people who don't mind much about dealing with an undead (not that you couldn't help this a bit with charm spells).

I think fusing a soul completely into a phylactery with a different ritual should still be a possible option. The power of the lich can be dependent on the distance to his phylactery. You'd have to find it somehow to really kill him (or blackmail him). Or, if you become a lich, you simply return to it if you die and can regenerate. Let your enemies think they've "dealt" with you, and later do whatever you want, undisturbed and with a new body. The spiritual connection could be severed easier, but soultraps don't or barely work on possessed bodies, and you generally cannot be killed as easily.

An extremely powerful being, maybe a demigod, could theoretically keep it's soul intact and prevent it from fading, even without being bound to a physical body or other vessel. Should the player somehow be able to reach such a state, gameplay certainly would change drastically. Tough this would not necessarily be the best choice and is mostly stuff for something like a secret story path or easteregg, it could be very interesting. Ready to haunt a city or to start playing a game of Populos?

How about You meet a struggling Necromancer in abandoned cave. He asks you for help turning into a lich, with a promise of great reward. The quest would provide a full fleshed out lore version of all steps taken in Lichood, and be quite long. You would be payed quite well for your exploits at several points in the quest. However, once the Necromancer becomes a lic his mind is overpowered by the power that he didn't get for himself (you did it for him) and he becomes mindless and weak. He attacks you, and after the fight you can undergo the rituals to become a Lich yourself.

My thoughts of how to be a lich (quest-wise).

Collect certain books on necromancy (Preparation of Corpses 1-4? Legions of the Dead?), study them. Eventually a lich will come and take you to their lair, because they want an apprentice. You'll have to do a long series of tasks (collecting 10 grand soul gems, getting the bodies of so-and-so and such-and-such, collecting ingredients, finding books, etc.) Eventually after these tasks are completed he will challenge you to a duel to see if you're worthy of a place amongst the demi-gods, being a lich.

Kill him (he'll be extremely high level), take his journal and read it. It'll supply the steps. Complete the ritual and get the following attribute/stat bonuses.

+10 to Intelligence, Willpower, -10 to Strength, Personality, Endurance. +50 to conjuration, +30 to destruction, alteration, restoration, +10 to blunt (staves).

New Greater Powers: Command Dead (a spell cast on target that takes control of a group of undead within 30 feet from each other and fights for you, lasts for 360 seconds+30/level), Death Touch (Damage Health, Damage Fatigue, Damage Endurance, by 100+25/level)

Lesser Powers: Poisonous Grip (50 poison damage, not resistable +10/level)

Benefits: All undead you summon last until they die, you can have a maximum of 10 summoned undead at a time.

Weaknesses: People (except Mages' Guild) will fear you, everyone will have disposition modifer of -50 whenever speaking to you, unless you hide it (Mages' Guild will have -10).

Not to criticizes too much but, honestly, it should be MORE than "you get a stat bonus here and there and a little reduced stats here and there", becoming a Lich should actually CHANGE how the game plays.
Something like "immortality" comes to mind so you can't just be killed by some random adventurer crossing your path (your physical body, yea, but what's a physical body when you're practically a demigod).

I would also like to see the minion/servant idea taken to a new notch. I made a Morrowind mod that created a soldier office, and you could hire simple companions, equip them as you wish, and they'd follow many orders. Run out of companions? Pay up and spawn some more! I forgot what exactly the problem was, but it didn't turn out well in Oblivion, spawning soldiers and such.

They should really expand on companions in general, especially companion sharing. This, combined with resurrecting the corpses of your enemies, could make a really well integrated path to necromancy and lichdom.

my preferred Lich system would be something like:

You, in the course of your adventures, discover an old and dusty tome, written in the Daedric script. You must translate the book yourself (meaning, player gets out pen and paper and translates), and you can find a translation key at certain rare book dealers or in the hands of the Synod or college of whispers. (Or maybe daedra worshipers?) Translating the book reveals that it is the journal of a lich, who had written down his thoughts on the life and un-life has lead. In the journal he reveals how that phylactery stuff is mostly bunk and fairy tales through the encounters he has had, and also points to several books he had read during the course of preparing for the ritual along with some ingredients he had particular trouble with. With this information in hand, you can begin to pursue the books in question. These books, along with other books that you will have to find via negotiation and research will eventually allow your character to attempt to design a ritual for lichdom. (you would need to be very skilled in restoration, mysticism, alteration, and etc.) Eventually, you can encounter a Necromancer who tried to become a lich. He reveals that he could never successfully complete the ritual, but he does have research he can give you. This lets you vastly accelerate the pace of ritual development, as you only now only need a few supplementary sources and to complete an easier skill check in order to develop your own ritual.

Once the ritual is developed, you must find a safe haven to conduct the ritual. (A hidden "secrecy" stat would exist, based on the way in which you collected your sources. IF its low, your enemies will know what your up to (rep system) and attempt to kill you before you complete the ritual. If its high, you should be safe) With a completed ritual, you would cast a spell to reflect the creation of your temporary soul vessel. Afterwards, you must wait for somewhere between a week to a month for the process to be completed. (based on number of source materials and how high your skills were compared to the bare minimum needed to develop a ritual) Once finished, congrats, your a lich!

Lichdom gameplay:
-Your necromantic spells are now much more efficent in terms of spell costs. You also have access to additional spells.

-A new branching series of spells and abilities you can acquire for yourself via direct modification of your physical form.

- adventurers, some knightly orders, idiots, and certain religious groups consider your existence abhorrent. If your "secrecy" stat is low, due to going on murder sprees or simply telling everyone your a lich, they may attempt to kill you.

-Your phylactery, though no longer holding your soul (If it breaks, you WILL NOT DIE) is believed to be your weakness due to superstition. Placing it somewhere then publicizing its location can divert attention away from your hide out. IF they break it, you can no longer use it to create such distractions, but you don't need it, so not much is lost.

-Your magicka pool is much higher, but you take penalties to strength and endurance. Fatigue is more or less inconsequential.

-As time goes on, Mages will approach you in order to gain a better understanding of the Arcane. The philosophies you instill them with during the education process (if you teach them that is) will eventually creep into the Synod and college of whispers. This can eventually lead to you being the confidant and teacher of high-ranking mages in these guilds, as well as these groups better reflecting your views. The Opposite can also happen, and they can actively reject the philosophies spread by your students. Should your students be repulsed in this manner from the Synod or college of whispers, they may eventually return to you and pledge allegiance, or turn on you for ruining their lives.

-Servants: some of the mages that come to you for teaching may pledge their loyalty to you. Also, you may hire people to support you and create puppet organizations that allow you to influence the affairs of the living. You would be able to create: Necromancer cults that are lead by one of your students and serve to carry out research initiatives and other arcane tasks, criminal groups meant to give you influence in the criminal underworld, and seemingly legitimate guilds or factions for effecting public affairs and politics.

-Criminal, guild, and political leaders may come to you for assistance. Helping them is a good way to influence the world, and you can use the opportunity to manipulate their very minds.

-like any other lich you can be destroyed. Game over if that happens.

I actually like this long list of ideas. :thumbsup:

Why no just kill him in his sleep as soon as you have the required info? Why wait until he's uber powerful. <.>

also, Darth, I absolutely adored your ideas basicly that's exactly the lich system I want, apart from the phylactery bit.

From a gameplay perspective, my concern with implementing a DnD style phylactery is that it would result in either: Players getting pissy and not having fun because they suddenly drop dead while in the middle of something, or make players effectively immortal and remove the loss of progress associated with death.