Link to previous thread: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=958319&st=0&start=0

This thread is made to continue a discussion from a recently reactivated thread about lichdom.

Liches appeared as creatures both in Oblivion and in Morrowind (to be precise in its datadisks) and it seems that many of us think that it would be nice to make it possible for the player to become one in TES V. So far TES tried to keep their games soert of separated into three main parts: combat, magic and theft. Most aspects of the game, namely guilds, but also skills or attributes fall in one of these cathegories. It has long been a part of TES taht the player could become a vampire, which usually brought a great boost especially to players oriented on thievery. In Bloodmoon, Morrowind's second datadisk, it became possible for he player to become a werewolf, which was a great boost for combat oriented characters. What we seem to lack, though, is a transformation possibility aimed primarily on mages. And in my opinion a graeat possibility here would be a lich.

Both previous threads showed that there are many of us, who would like this possibility to be present, but as always here in this forum, there are also those who do not agree. The discussion in the last thread was rather interresting, so I decided taht we should continue here.

We, who wish to have the possibility to play as liches woud probably agree on several points about it, I'll try to sum them up here. Fell free to disagree:

1. Lich should not be a playable race from the begining, but a memeber of any race can become a lich during the gameplay
2. To become a lich, one must perform a ritual, that is rather difficult to do right and requires a great knowledge of magic
3. The character must be rather powerful to perform this ritual, therefore it cannot be perormed at teh very begining of the game

What we cannot agree on still is:

1. Should liches be able to engage in conversation with other NPCs? And if so, should there be any specifics, limitations, ...?
2. What exactly should the liches look like?
3. What should be their powers?

Before the discussion begins, I would like to say that so far the lore on lichesis rather thin and a bit contradictory, but from what I know I personally concider the possibility of becoming a lich for the player totally possible. If the devs of the game decide that they donot wish to include the possibility of lichdom, I'm sure they can come up with dozens and dozens of reasons why it is not possible, what I would like to show here is that if they do wish to allow this possiblity, it would be perfectly doable.

And just for record, I answer YES to both questions.

Now, it is time for you

The problem of making it the third in line of transformation is that it is completely disproportionate to vampirism and lycanthophy: it isn't invertible (your physical form isn't preserved), lyches should/would be a lot more powerful than their equivalents in vampires/wolves and the ritual is a lot more complicated than attracting those diseases.
You could say that a mage's transformation is the stuff he enchants or the potions he makes, while the other two (warrior/thief) need help for that, but if you don't find that enough, I think there should be other rituals or studies to complement the diseases.

I LOVE to play spellcasters, and being a lich just increases my power. In DnD whenever we have an evil campaign, I am a necromancer trying as hard as he can to be a lich. Liches in the TES universe are far too weak. If they have to be scaled, at least 50 levels over the player character. But they should be extremely rare.

But they should also have great loot. (Staff of Electrocution (100 Lightning Damage on Target)), Robes of Unlife (+5 to intellect, +5 to willpower, -5 strength, -5 endurance, +100 magicka, +10 to conjuration), etc.

Liches in TES (especially Oblivion) aren't to be feared. They're to be laughed at. I've seen goblins with more fight than liches in TES.

Yeah, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to become one
No, I wouldn't play as one as they just seem weak

Loss of endurance, loss of melee capabilities, loss of speed and manouverability. You basically become a floating turret and unless you had an infinite pool of magicka you'd get cut down pretty swiftly

I don't know what kind of magical defenses liches have, I suppose that during the transformation you could alter your final form depending on your magical prowess but it would seem like more of a disability than an advantage

Correction, liches in Oblivion are far too weak. Liches in Daggerfall and Morrowind (there were what, 3 in Morrowind? All of them could one to two shot my brother's level 60+ battlemage with 300 or so HP. It was ridiculous) were powerful and uncommon, but when you met one it was just carnage.

I don't seem to remember any liches in MW...although I do recall one or two tough dungeons that may have contained a creature like that (one was some kind of old mage's tower that you learn about from some NPCs and the other was a tomb of some Nord warlord where his weapon lies - ask a drunkard in one of Vivec's taverns).

There were liches in the tribunal expansion, they were even weaker than in Oblivion.

Oh right! Those burdening guys! Weak as hell, true, but they had annoying spells (a glitch in the game caused the Burden spell to lower my strength permanently, until clearing it in a shrine).

No, the lich in Tribunal that I was thinking of was http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Gedna_Relvel, who had a spell that did 100-200 points of fire, frost, and poison damage (so a max of 600 damage) and had (according to the wiki) 700+(Player levelx100) hp, which means she would usually several thousand hp.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Barilzar was rather powerful himself, as well.

No and I'm not sure.

I don't think Bethesda should include Lichdom as a possibility in Vanilla Tes V. Mainly because becoming a lich is exclusively for mage characters and it wouldn't be fair to dedicate a part of the game to one type of character without giving something to the others. You mentions vampirism and werewolf. While it is true that werewolves were combat oriented, anyone could become one no matter your skill selection and Vampires didn't favor stealth oriented characters any more that the other types, it all depended on your clan. I think Betheda should spend their time making a better game than giving mages advantages. That being said there is a reason why we are able to mod TES games. Several mods exist for MW giving people a chance to become a lich and I think it should stay that way.

I think:

-The transformation to a Lich should be permanent, and if you transform, there's no going back.
-A lich shouldn't be able to use physical attacks, or if it can, it would be have to be very weak.
-Transformation to a Lich should give the player much more health and much more magika, at the expense of lowered strength and physical attack-oriented skills.
-A Lich should definitely be able to communicate with people, mostly because it would ruin the game if the player couldn't communicate and get quests.

Well, I think that the liches should be revised. I agree that you should not see ten weak liches in one dungeon like in TES III or IV. I would like liches to be NPCs instead of creatures, so that you can talk to them, perhaps get quests, or attack them, in which case you should be ready for a beating. and yes, they should have some great loot on themselves if you manage to kill them.


Definitely. After the transformation, your body cannot be restaured to life again.

That might get a bit complicated to actually do. But if the melee attack effectiveness depends on strength and agility, then lowering thsoe two attributes should render your lich pretty inefective in weapon combat.

And also boost the effectiveness of spells and probably boosting some magic related skills


I'd say so as well, but many people complain that noone would talk to a lich. I think that I could live with liches possibilities to communicate being done the same as vampire's in Morrowind, but I would sure much more prefere if liches could talk as normal.

If that's the case, masks need to be in TES:V in order to hide your face and gloves for those bony hands. Disguises, though deposition should be rendered to 40, due to the fact that you are hidden behind a mask and gloves to hide your identity. This goes with characters who are not liches, because you are dealing with a hidden and possibly questionable identity. However, dealing with necromancers, mages who are not so disturbed by such things, and unsavory types shouldn't mind talking with liches.

So yes, TES:III with masks

Disguises should be added anyway, but liches need to be forced to use some pretty powerful ilusion in order to speak to normal people. I can understand that some can be used to unnatural beings and dealing with them, but how many of the common folk would just stand and talk to someone who reeks of death?

I voted yes to both. Although, I'd really like to see more love given to vampires, and more than anything, a return of lycanthropy. I loved the werewolves in Morrowind. Gimme that back!

Don't forget http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Grurn. With a massive 2000 hitpoints, a potent shock spell, and a definitely-impressive 10 regen to health and magicka, he's easily one of the most powerful monsters in the game, probably second only to the Tribunal gods.

Hell yeah, Grurn is a total pain in the ass to kill if you can't ditch out damage quickly >.<.

I remember Gedna, the first time I met her she welcomed me with a spell in the face (which by the way killed me...), but I never played with the Firemoth dlc, so I wouldn't know about Grurn...

Well on the topic of Transformation, the only Lore we have on the actual process is what we were given in The Path of Transcendence.

Excerpt, The Path of Transcendence:



But it would be foolish to think that the only way to transform ones self into a Lich is Celedaen method, and sadly because of Celedaen's we don't even know if this works.


Another topic would be the Faction conflict in Oblivion.



Never really got an explanation on why this happens....


Also I agree that lichs should be insanely rare and insanely powerful, as well as being NPCs as opposed to Creatures.

I voted yes to both.

I think it would be cool if it was implemented into the game as an optional quest associated with a faction that includes "dark" mages.

As for the bonuses applied to a lich, I'm thinking something along the lines of

1) A permanent magica bonus
2) Something like a +10 skill bonus for Mysticism, Conjuration, and Restoration, and a +5 bonus for Illusion and Enchant(if the skill is included)
3) I can't decide on the numbers, but they could get attribute bonuses to Intelligence, Willpower, and Endurance, as well as penalties to Personality, Agility, and Speed. These should be minor.
4) A unique Dominate Undead spell, useable once per day, that makes all undead within, say, 20 to 30 feet fight for you.
5) Immunity to diseases

The only problem I see with Lichdom is the issue of the Phylactery. While I think game balance is only a very minor issue (it's a single player game after all), making the PC invincible would undoubtably result in the game being far too easy. Maybe part of the quest for Lichdom could include the creation of your Phylactery, and upon completion you would receive a health bonus (indicating that your body must be more or less destroyed in order for you to be defeated).

I actually think it would be better if you couldn't talk to everyone in the game as a lich, just as long as there a some people that are okay with you. It's a conscious decision that you would make as a player. I thought playing a vampire in Morrowind was actually quite fun, and I never even found my clan.

I still think it would be cool if there was a disguise mechanic in the game, but not just for liches, it would be useful for wanted criminals and other shady characters too.

Good Ideas. I 100% agree and would very much like to have the option to become a Lich. I don't think the agruement that you cannot talk to poeple holds up because it is a choice that you as the player make or do not make. It should be included along with an enhanced magic system.

agree, but also it should also make sure that all undead besides Vampires have a 90+ disposition for you.

Talking to people would be decided by (PCpersonality+NPCdisposition)- (NPCresponibility*1.5)= ability to talk (must be over 35 to talk)

Ok, my two cents.


- MASSIVE magicka bonus. It should be an epic, epic bonus.
- 15 - 25 bonus to all magical abilities.
- 20+ bonus to willpower and intelligence, and 10+ bonus to endurance(You're a skeleton, don't have to worry bout silly things like running out of blood or brain damage any more.)
- Penalties to strength, speed and agility, but not to personality, as it should be irrelevant, I mean, people will either admire you or they'll run screaming.
- Some [censored]in' new robes and a bad ass crown.
- Being a bad ass skeleton.
- Phylactery that you retreat to after you die. I'd like the system to work like this: You have your phylactery, but there's no point in carrying it around with you because after you die, people will just hit it with their sword until it breaks. So you'll want to either, A. Give it to your most trusted minion(c'mon, you're lich, you have minions), and have him guard it with his life. B. Deposit it in the deepest darkest depths of your lair(c'mon, you're a lich, you have a lair), and have it guarded by a dragon(c'mon, you're a lich, you have a dragon, bonus points if it's a dracolich, which is a dragon lich. I'm not messing with you, they exist, read the Dungeons and Dragons monster manual) or what have ye. Also, in either case you should be able to enchant your phylactery with some epic shield, absorbtion and resistance spells, so it'd basicly take someone 10x your might to actually destroy it.
- You should have to quest to make a lair
- Young necromancers should flock to you as a father/mother figure(lol) and teacher. Basicly, they'll be in your sweet crib, you can teach them, or you can teach one of them very well and then get him to teach the rest. You should be able to send them on tasks and missions, and just use them in a lot of ways. also, it would be cool if one of them got too smart and became a lich, and you had to face off against them.
- The ability to create an army of undead, necromancers, orcses, etc, and storm a city, slaugther everyone, and make it an unholy fortress.
- You should have the ability to be extremely snarky
- You should be able to gather prisoners and torture them in your lair for your amusemants :3
seriously, the amount of possibilities with liches are endless, and it would take a loooong post to cover them all. I want a lich system, that is just so epic it'll shock people.
-Finally, you should make sure to get a monster in the darkness, then make sure he'll kill your second in command should he ever betray you.

Also, a lot of this might seems overpowering, but who cares if it's overpowering as long as it's fun and epic.

NO! Once the lichification is complete, the use of a phylactery is obsolete. This is NOT DnD. Also, there is no [censored] way a dragon will guard something for you. For one, they'll most likely see you as a trespasser and kill you on sight. Furthermore, they're in hiding, to the point where only really the emperor could have a chance of calling upon them, let alone actually FINDING one. Lastly, dragons are semi-divine; they're not going to serve some lich. Again, this is NOT DnD, so check that out the door once you step into TES. It may have worked in Arena, but not anymore


Why young necromancers? Necromancers are not a bunch of goth kids who kick around puppies. Plus, liches (with the exception of Mannimarco in some ways) tend to be extremely isolated. What about regular mages that wish to learn from your incredible power and research? I am begining to think you really don't have that much comprehention as to why a person would be a lich in the first place. I'll give you one hint, it's not always about becoming more powerful, that's just 1 benefit of being to continue much longer than when you are alive.


Why an unholy fortress? What is it with the be as big of an evil dike as you possibly can? Even Mannimarco did not live in a fortress, but in some underground crypt.


And why can't we be extremely snarky as a mortal? This just doesn't make sense.


I find you ideas too tied into DnD and sophomoric.


Do you truly believe if anyone dabbles in necromancy and the desire to be a lich to be fundamentally evil in all regards? You do know that it's not only necromancers that can be liches, a mage can do it too with a bit of research.

I REJECT YOUR REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE IT WITH MY OWN

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