I was wondering, would anything happen to a race that licked Hist sap? I'm just wondering because when the Argonians do their little "coming of age" ritual, licking the Hist's sap determines what they look like. So say another race was welcomed into an Argonian tribe and offered the ritual, would anything happen to them? Like maybe their eyes changing to the vertical slit eyes Argonians have or growing a (small) set of horns?

If it didn't kill them probably something like that fighters guild quest.

If Oblivion is anything to go by, Hist sap has a hallucinogenic effect on non-Argonians. The Hist are able to modify the Argonians because they made them, and they don't have such a connection to the Ehlnofex races.

Darn, I was hoping it was a thread on how the release the Argonians from bondage to their Lovecraftian inhuman masters

Ok, so:

Hist sap+Argonians= (for lack of a better term) speeds up their "evolution"

Hist sap+any other race= get's them crazy high

Thanks for clearing that up. But just to make sure, there's no way, what so ever, for the Hist sap to even slightly change another race besides Argonians?

The trees themselves probably could make something else evolve if they wanted but to my knowledge the sap only works for argonians.

I think a better way to put it would be Hist Sap IS their evolution. If I remember correctly, in Lord of Souls I believe, Mere Glim has a vision or dream of a tiny lizard or reptile licking the sap of the Hist. This made me think thats how the Hist altered/created the Argonians.

I'm pretty sure that was just him remembering his own tree-licking ceremony.

Yes. It's interesting to see how the tree-licking is essentially their "puberty", though. It may have been embellished some, but the idea that they're little more than smart lizards until they lick the Hist, which gives them gender(?) and the physical and mental features necessary to survive and thrive was something I found incredibly interesting. Whether or not the Argonians are the literal children of the Hist, they seem to sincerely believe so, which implies that the effect of the Hist on the Argonians should never be underestimated.

And I'm not quite sure what the deal with the Oblivion Hist was... wasn't it supposedly a "sick" member of its species? So, was it rogue, or literally ill, and why would it let itself be carried away from Black Marsh?

Can't remember where, but a suggestion was planted somewhere that the Oblivion Hist wasn't a true Hist at all, but rather was one of any number of particularly powerful hallucinogenic plants from Black Marsh. I favor this idea, as I'd rather believe an encounter with a real Hist would be a little more...climactic.

On the other hand, a Hist tree ripped from its roots from its brother-trees would be very sick indeed.

Well, the suggestion wasn't from any of the video games, I can tell you that much. You probably just heard some forum WMG.

Found it - it's from "An Exploration of the Hist Language," which obviously is a dubious - but nonetheless fascinating - source. I also connected "mercenaries" with the Blackwood Company on my own. Still. I like the idea.

bah, temple zero thoughtgasming.

In my own mind, the Blackwood Hist was a pariah tree cast out by his seed-pod-brothers for extreme, arboreal psychopathy. Grand delusions of conquering the Cyrodiils and burrowing their roots deep into the bedrock of White Gold, of spreading Black Marsh across the face of Tamriel and then Nirn.

It was sickly and nuts in the heartwood, and it certainly didn't come into Nibenay against its will. In so many words, the tree didn't work for Blackwood Company; The company worked for the tree. Hell, the company was the tree! That whole business about the forest and kitty charcoal warriors was bull, Blackwood was named for that bastard perennial in the basemant.

Of course, this is all in my own mind :teehee:

To be very honest, I always consider the idea of licking the Hist as some sort of bond rather than as a necessity. If an Argonian didn't lick the tree, I would bet the Argonian would still be able to be an advlt without the influence of such that of the Hist. Way I see it, there are Argonian living all over Tamriel and I never heard such account that a baby Argonian just turn into a lizard and not an Argonian, nor the fact that they would travel all the way back to Argonia just for some ceremony.

If I recall correctly, many of the Argonians you'll run into (at the VERY least pre-3E) were more or less "stationed" outside of Argonia. The bartender in Redguard is the one I'm thinking of; I don't know if the Argonians, like the Hist, have their renegades (which would be one possible explanation for a non-Hist-ophilic Argonian family) or not.

And, if they were TRUE Argonians, they most certainly sure as [NUMINIT] make sure their children had the chance to lick the Hist, assuming it's even possible for Argonians to make babies outside of the uber-romantic serrated-stinger-filled-mucky swamps they call home.

This is also how I see it. I imagine that the hallucinations were just regular-old Hist mind-control, which is in no way limited to Argonians. That Hist just wanted you to kill a bunch of people, because it was a sicko.

Then we don't have all the information at all in regards to the census nor who live in what. I rather doubt its just "stationed" alone as not everyone of the same race ganna stay at the same place, like the Khajiit in Redguard and all the Imperial/Nord/Mers/Breton in all over the place in Redguard comic. Heck even the Redguard comic show us the Dunmer's slavery in action, which I would bet there are Argonian slaves living in Morrowind at the time before Redguard game occurs.

Shorter term, I doubt all Argonian just live in Argonia and in reality, there are Argonians living outside of Argonia.


Define "TRUE Argonians"; not all Argonians are necessary hivemind'd (except those who lick the Hist and live closely to the Hist, of course) to be the same.

That's basically how I meant it. No offense to those Argonians who chose to abstain from the Hist sap, for various moral and religious reasons. :intergalactic:

But there's still so much we don't know about Argonians... how would an Argonian who "rejects the Hist" be treated by his fellows from Argonia itself? Would they even be able to tell? Are the Argonians all born with an innate connection to the Hist, or is it something that's developed due to proximity and sap-exposure (and, therefore, not hereditary and possible to remove via isolation)?







I'll definitely hop on board this theory-train. It resolves a lot of questions, while still maintaining the integrity of the BATW Principle.

Just move away? Argonians are people and they can make choices. If its true that the Argonians are to be with the Hist all their life, then there wouldn't be many Argonians out there, either by choice or by force.

Also, the I would assume that they came from the Hist, but not connected unless lick and staying close to where the Hist reside. I see this as a religion, but with a define origin. Its like saying that all the Orsimer came from a Daedra of Crap and therefore, that whom they have to worship, but many choose other beliefs, from Daedras to the Divines and in some Orcs case, Trinimac, even if he literally became the Daedra of Crap which turn all his believer as living crap.

Didn't the books make mention of the Hist having "imperialized" Argonians killed? Or was that just the rogue Lilmoth tree that caused that?

I take the stance that the Hist having physical and mental control over Argonians is done through their sap, and licking the Hist is just one of many ways to get it into your system (note how Mere-Glim had to touch the Umbriel-Hist, where he could make contact with the sap, before it could "sing" to him). The tree-licking ceremony Argonians go through in puberty wouldn't be a strict requirement, but is more of a symbolic gesture, where the Hist first shows its influence over the Argonian in question. And the more contact one has with Hist sap, the stronger and longer-lasting control they can have.

The idea ties in nicely with the Hist in Oblivion being a sicko that wanted to kill people. It also explains why the "imperialized" Argonians needed to be killed, instead of the Hist being able to mind-control them into committing suicide. Oblivion also showed that non-Argonians can be affected by Hist sap too, which brings up some interesting possibilities.

I loosely remember reading that part as well (didn't finish the book as its turning more and more into fanfic every page I read). Also, I would think its just the Argonians of Argonia that attack Morrowind and not ALL Argonian that live everywhere else?

rogue lilmoth tree only.

All Argonians who still felt the call of the Hist probably.