Light armor Vs Heavey armor

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:57 am

I hope the two skills aren't seperate anymore... Instead, just one armor skill. Protection value should be relatively stable across the field, but what improves would be stagger-resistance, speed, mobility, and resistance to movement-based gimps in combat.

The skill should increase based on how much of the armor you wear, with "light" armors not counting for very much (Giving fewer penalties), and heavy armors counting for a lot more. Then, you can effectively wear a mashup of armors. (Orcish Gauntlets, Ebony Pauldrons, Mithral Hauberk, chainmail greaves, Duke Nukem's Big Boot.)


This is sort of what I think, (although I haven't entirely convinced myself) but with one difference. You do have a heavy/light/medium skill, but armors themselves are not heavy, medium, or light. It's the suit of armor that you wear that is heavy, medium, or light.

For instance, wearing a steel helmet and nothing else is light armor...after all, you're only wearing about 2* pounds on your head. On the other hand, wearing 50/50 leather and steel might be medium, and full steel (or all steel with no helmet) would be heavy. Basically, it comes down to the overall weight of the complete suit you're wearing.

*don't quote me on that, it's just a guess
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Mistress trades Melissa
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:12 am

As I read through the comments posted above I have to ask myself which game called "Oblivion" everyone has been playing. My confusion stems from the following:

According to any bit of information I have ever read or witnessed through game play in Oblivion, the two sets of armor have quite a few distinct differences. I will warn everyone, however, that the following will contain quite a bit of math; albeit, not extravagant or wildly complex math. Essentially, anyone with a working knowledge of algebra, ratios, and percentages would hardly find themselves pressed to comprehend. I digress. First, let us establish a few base averages. Upon perusing the UESPWiki, one finds the following values:

As a legend I will establish the following units of measure in the absence of tangible ones dictated by Bethesda. Let...
L = light armor
H = heavy armor
W = weight
D = durability, which is equivalent to the amount of damage the item can receive before it becomes broken (think of it terms of Health/hit-points)
P = protection

Light armor has an average weight of 25.37857143 (which will be further shortened to 25.38W) units of measure; additionally, we find that it has an average durability of 1919.142857 (shortened to 1919.14D); furthermore, it offers an average level of protection of 30.96428571 (or 30.96P).

Heavy armor has an average weight of 111.5357143 (or 111.54W); it has an average durability rating of 4349.285714 (or 4349.29D); and an average protection level of 51.07142857 (or 51.07P).

The next step is to take these resulting values and turn them into a set percentages where light armor values are compared to heavy armor values on a scale of 100. The formula is as follows: LX(100)/HX . Where X = the appropriate attribute (W, D, or P). Stick with me...

LW(100)/HW=% or 25.38(100)/111.54=22.75%
LD(100)/HD=% or 1919.14(100)/4349.29=44.13%
LP(100)/HP=% or 30.96(100)/51.07=60.63%

By examining this data we find some very interesting facts about the most basic differences between the two different armor types. Firstly, that a full set of light armor on average only weighs about 22.75% of what its comparable heavy armor set weighs. Secondly, that light armor is only 44.13% as durable as heavy armor; which means that you'll have to repair it more than twice as often. Lastly, we find that light armors offer an average of 60.63% of the level of protection that its heavier counterparts offer. These are all important factors to consider when deciding which is best for your use; additionally these numbers become even more complicated when factoring in the--for lack of a better word--perks that are gained at each skill-level (Novice, Apprentice, Journeyman, Expert, and Master). Take, for example, the following data:

The Light Armor skill-set obtains the following perks in the order respective to their skill-level (0 to 100): 150% decay rate, normal decay rate, 50% slower decay rate, zero encumberance when worn, and 150% protection rating. This data can be interpreted based on the above listed values, or...

From 0 to 24: W=25.38, D=959.57, P=30.96
25 to 49: W=25.38, D=1919.14, P=30.96
50 to 74: W=25.38, D=2878.71, P=30.96
75 to 99: W=0, D=2878.71, P=30.96
100: W=0, D=2878.71, P=46.44

The Heavy Armor skill-set obtains the following perks in the same order, respectively: 150% decay rate, normal decay rate, 50% slower decay rate, 50% encumberance, and zero encumberance. Therefore, we can obtain the following values...

From 0 to 24: W=111.54, D=2174.65, P=51.07
25 to 49: W=111.54, D=4349.29, P=51.07
50 to 74: W=111.54, D=6523.94, P=51.07
75 to 99: W=55.77, D=6523.94, P=51.07
100: W=0, D=6523.94, P=51.07

Bear in mind that zero ENCUMBERANCE is NOT the same as zero WEIGHT. It merely means that the item(s), as WORN, will affect the player-character's movement and attack speeds as though the item(s) weighed nothing; but they will, in your inventory continue to weigh the same as they normally do, irrespective of your skill-level. Had to throw that in there to clear up a possible point of confusion. Now, to more math! From the above results we can determine the following:

At the lowest possible skill-level (between 0 and 24) the percentages listed above remain the same; however, at the highest possible skill-level (100) we find an interesting bit of information. As both armor types result ultimately in zero encumberance, it can be inferred that both types are equal weight-specific when worn. In terms of durability we find that light armor continues to decay at roughly the same rate--by comparison to heavy armor--as it did before with a meager increase of only 0.00006763% (a value which is nothing to write home about!). Most importantly, we find that at a skill-level of 100 light armor only offers 90.93% of the level of protection that heavy armor does. In short, the end result is that both armor types will encumber you the same, but you'll be able to carry a considerably larger amount of additional equipment if your opt for light; additionally, you will continue to repair your light armor at slightly greater than twice the rate of heavy armor; finally, you won't get quite the same protection from light as heavy, but 90% is close enough to be negligible.

My--thoroughly explained--conclusion is that starting out one will notice a vast difference between the two armor types based on your player-character's respective skill-levels, however, as you increase said skill-levels the spread of variation begins to narrow and it really becomes a matter of the type of character you are playing. These numbers combined with an extensive knowledge of the leveling system and how each skill-set is governed by your attributes and their parent skill-groups (Combat, Magic, and Stealth) make for a very potent character. As each armor type (and particular skill-set) is governed by a separate skill-group it is easier for a person whose class is Combat-based to level each skill-set inside that entire skill-group and therefore the appropriate skill-set for his armor type. The end result is typically one in which the type of armor you wear is the one suited to your particular style and tastes. But, as with most RPGs the bulk of the game doesn't lie in you maxing out your skills. The VAST majority of your time in Oblivion was spent getting those skills to their uttermost limits.
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Bryanna Vacchiano
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:14 am

This is not about armor skills, but rather the armor it's self. What is the difference between light and heavy armor? It's one of my pet nitpicks about oblivion, but it dosen't feel like there is a solid difference between light and heavy armor.

Visually there is not a whole lot of difference. If you took pictures of all the armor classes in oblivion and ,without looking at the names, sort them up into light and heavy armor. How would you do that? Leather fur and chain mail look light enough. We can drop them into the light pile, but when you get up to mithril, eleven and glass. They look just like the heavy armors. They might literally be lighter, but they don't look like they are.

The next problem I have with them is how different they are in game play. What is the difference between light and heavy armor? Threw all my time playing in oblivion, I only noticed one difference. Light armor weighted less and heaver armor had more armor. Granted that's a difference, but it's not a very distinct difference. It's the same kind of difference between armors in the same grouping. Fur armor weighs less and leather has more armor.

Now that I have defined what I think is the problem, I want to talk about how I think it can be changed. First I say change the names of the classes. Light and heavy are not very descriptive. Make it something like leather and metal. If you see leather armor, you know right away it's leather. If you see metal, you know right away it's metal. Next the two armors should have unique benefits not available to the other armor. You can do this quite easy with perks. For example, Archery perks that let you shoot faster in leather armor, or sword perks that make your charges more deadly when you wear metal armor.

This is just what I think. If you think the system is fine or that it should be handled a different way, please post.

Great you brought this up, I totally agree. In Morrowind and Oblivion, a lot of times I couldn't see a point of using light armor as a warrior character. Obviously in Oblivion, you would be penalized for sneaking in heavy armor.
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Alycia Leann grace
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:51 pm

Oblivion litterally didn't have light or heavy armor, as all armor in the game weighted equally and gave equal protection when you were master in either heavy or light armor. Light armor should let you move as you like, no penalty, but still protecting like 40% of what heavy armor does.
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Roberta Obrien
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:32 am

I found that one major difference is whether or not you're roleplaying your character. One wearing a full outfit of light armor can loot more, cast better quality spells, and definitely has more dexterity. That easily suits the needs of a Rogue, Ranger, Cleric, or Spellsword. You'd easily be able to sneak around as a Rogue with some protection for if you're detected. Pretty much the same goes for the Ranger, but he'd also have better casting conditions for animal persuading spells. The Cleric would have appropriate defense for battle while still being able to cast spells (whether they be healing or for warding the undead). The same goes for the Spellsword. Heavy armor significantly decreases your dexterity. You pretty much have to tank with heavy armor and that's what you're supposed to do in it. Knights, Paladins, Fighters, and Berserker's are better off with the heaviest armor they can find. If you're not in your foes face wearing heavy armor, then something is wrong. That heavy suit of armor will take up much of your carrying potential, making it more tedious to loot all the dead left in your wake. Not that you'd need all that much cash if your armor supported you enough to clear dungeons completely. There are plenty of other classes that would be better suited to one or the other, you've just got to have some self restraint on making uber characters. I've played tons of characters that rely on various sets of equipment and have noticed the difference between the characters that can evade in combat and those that just take the hits.

Try timing your character running between two points while unarmored, lightly armored, and then heavily armored. There'll be a significant difference in the results.

Mithril armor isn't as heavy as it looks, even though it's bulky looking. In D&D, it has reduced weight, which is the benefit-quality metal with low weight.
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No Name
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:06 pm

The main difference between them is their design as far as I know. The heavy armor is build from few, large plates while light armor is made from chains and small plates(the metal version). I agree that they need to feel different since when you reach master in heavy armor in OB it is weightless.
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Epul Kedah
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:43 am

Read my post above-it's more than a visual difference. Heck, Jagudar listed statistical differences. At master level for both heavy and light, the only difference is that heavy has more endurance. At that point, it shouldn't matter that much to you, though. It's your plight getting to your master level that makes a large portion of the game (for me at least).
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Mrs. Patton
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:29 am

Read my post above-it's more than a visual difference. Heck, Jagudar listed statistical differences. At master level for both heavy and light, the only difference is that heavy has more endurance. At that point, it shouldn't matter that much to you, though. It's your plight getting to your master level that makes a large portion of the game (for me at least).

Heavy armor should never weight 0 and light armor shoudl never weight 0 either, maybe light armor could half their weight and heavy armor could take -10% of their weight off, but no more than that. Heavy armor should protect more, maybe 2.5 times more than light armor, but should always bring penalties to movement and jumping height.

But have anyone considered how useless leather armor was in Oblivion, especially at level 1? It protected like 5% of the enemy damage, and you had possibly only 60 HP and enemies don't hit do much that 5% would take a single damage point away from the attack. This need to change, and I've been thinking of a DT and % protection to armors. Adding both would give different armor types different DT and %, instead of only %.
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Roberta Obrien
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:36 am

Heavy armor should never weight 0 and light armor shoudl never weight 0 either, maybe light armor could half their weight and heavy armor could take -10% of their weight off, but no more than that. Heavy armor should protect more, maybe 2.5 times more than light armor, but should always bring penalties to movement and jumping height.

But have anyone considered how useless leather armor was in Oblivion, especially at level 1? It protected like 5% of the enemy damage, and you had possibly only 60 HP and enemies don't hit do much that 5% would take a single damage point away from the attack. This need to change, and I've been thinking of a DT and % protection to armors. Adding both would give different armor types different DT and %, instead of only %.



I'm completely lost....when did anyone say armor should weigh 0?
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Samantha hulme
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:30 pm

I would prefer different perks for the armours as well as unarmoured

I hate being weighed down by heavy armour despite it's extra protection - I use a shield for my fighters in combat and that is supposed to be soaking up the blows

because I hate leaving loot behind i tend to prefer light armour

My unarmoured mages tend to jump around a lot in order to avoid getting whacked - though normally they don't have much strength to carry loot away unless they use feather spells and fast travel - which always feels a bit of a cheat to me.

I hope in Skyrim some more thought is given to making armour more useful depending on your playing style
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Jennifer May
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:41 am

I'm completely lost....when did anyone say armor should weigh 0?

The master perk in Oblivion for the heavy armor skill made it so if you had heavy armor on, it didn't weigh a thing. He was saying that didn't make any sense.
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FITTAS
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:17 am

It just make it where it doesn't hinder your movement speed. Even if it does make it weigh nothing, it also reduces the speed penalty to 0.

A direct quote from the wiki:
Skill levels
Novice (0-24): Heavy Armor degrades at 150% rate.
Apprentice (25-49): Heavy Armor degrades at 100% (normal rate).
Journeyman (50-74): Heavy Armor degrades at 50% rate.
Expert (75-99): Encumbrance (movement speed) penalty of Heavy Armor is reduced by 50% while worn.
Master (100): Encumbrance (movement speed) penalty of Heavy Armor is removed while worn.
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Richard Dixon
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:08 am

Different types of armor are made for different styles of combat , horse archers will probably use lamelar while footsoldiers will use plate and archers stuffed brigantine , zweihander users would prefer Gothic / Milanese or something like plate over chain mail because they have no shield . Choice of which one to use is not based in protection values - since after all troops tried to work around the protection rather than trying to break it - but how suitable it is to do the job .
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RObert loVes MOmmy
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:21 am

It just make it where it doesn't hinder your movement speed. Even if it does make it weigh nothing, it also reduces the speed penalty to 0.

A direct quote from the wiki:

Expert (75-99): Encumbrance (movement speed) penalty of Heavy Armor is reduced by 50% while worn.
Master (100): Encumbrance (movement speed) penalty of Heavy Armor is removed while worn.

When I became overencumbered while being a master in heavy armor and was training light armor in combat in dungeons I was fighting in, I just swapped on my heavy armor gear and I could move away from the dungeon, without dropping it. Meaning: It weight 0 when I have it on, this is not how it should be in Skyrim, that's all I'm saying. That and that there is more to armor perks than you've realized :o
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Jason Rice
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:27 pm

This is not about armor skills, but rather the armor it's self. What is the difference between light and heavy armor? It's one of my pet nitpicks about oblivion, but it dosen't feel like there is a solid difference between light and heavy armor.

Visually there is not a whole lot of difference. If you took pictures of all the armor classes in oblivion and ,without looking at the names, sort them up into light and heavy armor. How would you do that? Leather fur and chain mail look light enough. We can drop them into the light pile, but when you get up to mithril, eleven and glass. They look just like the heavy armors. They might literally be lighter, but they don't look like they are.

The next problem I have with them is how different they are in game play. What is the difference between light and heavy armor? Threw all my time playing in oblivion, I only noticed one difference. Light armor weighted less and heaver armor had more armor. Granted that's a difference, but it's not a very distinct difference. It's the same kind of difference between armors in the same grouping. Fur armor weighs less and leather has more armor.

Now that I have defined what I think is the problem, I want to talk about how I think it can be changed. First I say change the names of the classes. Light and heavy are not very descriptive. Make it something like leather and metal. If you see leather armor, you know right away it's leather. If you see metal, you know right away it's metal. Next the two armors should have unique benefits not available to the other armor. You can do this quite easy with perks. For example, Archery perks that let you shoot faster in leather armor, or sword perks that make your charges more deadly when you wear metal armor.

This is just what I think. If you think the system is fine or that it should be handled a different way, please post.



The problem is bethesda never really put any effort on combat system. They do the maximum basic and let the modder work for them.
Your right there never have been a great diferenciation on armor, like noise level, encumberance level, or slowdown factor, nor material vs material factor etc..
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Karl harris
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:13 am

Sadly i wish vanilla oblivion had all the armour types had weapon to. Like how i wish mithril curiass (however you spell the chestplate) had its own set of mithril weapons. Makes sence? lol
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lucy chadwick
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:09 am

That would likely be a poor material choice for most weapons. The power of almost all large weapons (the size being inferred here is greater than a big knife) is in their weight. Being as that the mythos behind mithril materials is that it is both extremely light and durable would be counter-productive to many weapons types. In fact, in the Tolkien literature, from which the metal originates, it is described as being highly malleable, stronger but lighter than tempered steel, as shiny as silver and never tarnishing. Oddly enough, the physical properties which he assigned it are not altogether dissimilar to platinum. But that is neither here nor there; my point is simply that it seems to me to that it would be a poor choice of material and completely redundant aesthetically since weapons exist in the game which are made of silver. A metal to which mithril is generally represented as visually the same.
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cosmo valerga
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:22 am

In Oblivion, speed and sneaking ability depended on one's armor type, but that's all, as far as I'm aware. How should they fix it? I'd rather just see them scrap armor skills and just allow armor to be armor... like in Daggerfall and Arena.
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Michelle Smith
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:22 am

The problem is bethesda never really put any effort on combat system. They do the maximum basic and let the modder work for them.
Your right there never have been a great diferenciation on armor, like noise level, encumberance level, or slowdown factor, nor material vs material factor etc..

Did you read the large post, explaining in detail the differences? Seem quite different to me.
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[ becca ]
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:58 am

Did you read the large post, explaining in detail the differences? Seem quite different to me.


Quite. And I never even touched on how Speed, Agility and Luck all factor into the equation. I think the source of the problem here is that most people develop ideas in their minds based on what something "seems" to be to them, and simply call it "fact" for a lack understanding the truth. If you look at the vast amount formulae and resources available which document the intricacies of how things work inside the game world, you have to at least recognize that a great deal of thought and work went into the project. That doesn't go to say that it isn't without its shortcomings. I strongly believe, however, that what has set Bethesda and their games apart from the rest of the market is the fact that they acknowledge these events and address them in such a way that each product is exponentially greater than its predecessor. While I hope for a great many things, I don't desire a total overhaul of the game world, its mechanics, or the things in it. At the same time I do lean more closely towards tossing my hat into the arena of "they have the technology to rebuild him, to make him better, stronger, faster" simply because they never cease to amaze me with the quality of their work. As a gamer of nearly 20 years there are a few games by which I hold others to their standards. Oblivion is among them and continues to be the standard-bearer by which I judge all other RPGs.

At any rate, on the original topic, I don't think the armor system needs to be changed dramatically (I do recall hearing in the podcasts or reading in an article that the two were condensed into one, or I could have imagined that). That being said, I wouldn't complain if a greater variety of cooler looking equipment was implemented.

As a footnote, I would like to see clutter disappear, or at least have a resale value.
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Michelle davies
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:38 am

I would actually prefer a system where they was no distinction between "light and heavy armour", but where there is differences between "being lightly- or heavily armoured."

As far as I'm concerned you're still lightly armoured when you're wearing a steel briastplate, vambraces, a sturdy helmet and a pair of a greaves. Despite the heavy material used in the armour, many parts of your body remain unprotected. In this suit of armour none of your joints are protected either, preserving your mobility. I think the sum of equipped armour should determine whether you're lightly or heavy armoured, and that you'd simply have an Armour Use skill that determines the threshold for when your character begins to suffer mobility penalties from the sum of his equipped armour. The heavier the armour and the more pieces you equip, the greater the penalties that would need to be offset by your Armour Use skill.
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Marcus Jordan
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:31 am

I would actually prefer a system where they was no distinction between "light and heavy armour", but where there is differences between "being lightly- or heavily armoured."

As far as I'm concerned you're still lightly armoured when you're wearing a steel briastplate, vambraces, a sturdy helmet and a pair of a greaves. Despite the heavy material used in the armour, many parts of your body remain unprotected. In this suit of armour none of your joints are protected either, preserving your mobility. I think the sum of equipped armour should determine whether you're lightly or heavy armoured, and that you'd simply have a Armour Use skill that determines the threshold for when your character begins to suffer mobility penalties from the sum of his equipped armour. The heavier the armour and the more pieces you equip, the greater the penalties that would need to be offset by your Armour Use skill.

Locational damage solves all of those problems, lets hope Skyrim has it
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Oceavision
 
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