I like Daggerfall more than Oblivion... : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:12 am

I've noticed something about myself while playing Daggerfall:
I really enjoyed the basic backgrounds that could be generated by the game.

As a role-player, I thought this was a great thing, for it layed out my Argonian Ranger's backstory as if he lived in the Elder Scrolls universe!

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:14 pm

I've noticed something about myself while playing Daggerfall:
I really enjoyed the basic backgrounds that could be generated by the game.

As a role-player, I thought this was a great thing, for it layed out my Argonian Ranger's backstory as if he lived in the Elder Scrolls universe!

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion but I find this to be an odd reason to rank Oblivion lower. Just my $.02.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:47 pm

I take it that you're new to Daggerfall? This can go one of two ways, as far as I can see. You can continue liking them and find using your imagination as an adequate substitute or you could do what I did. Eventually, you could realize just how bland and repetitive that randomly-generated gameworld is and have the newfound feeling of amazement wear off. I still imagine to fill up the gameworld's space when I play it, but it just isn't worth it, in my opinion. I'll take more unique game content, any day. :shrug:

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:13 pm

Eventually, you could realize just how bland and repetitive that randomly-generated gameworld is and have the newfound feeling of amazement wear off. I still imagine to fill up the gameworld's space when I play it, but it just isn't worth it, in my opinion. I'll take more unique game content, any day. :shrug:

Oblivion is more repetitive and there is nothing unique about it, it's just randomly generated forests all over the place.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:37 am

Eventually, you could realize just how bland and repetitive that randomly-generated gameworld is and have the newfound feeling of amazement wear off. I still imagine to fill up the gameworld's space when I play it, but it just isn't worth it, in my opinion.

Eh, that exactly how I view Vanilla Oblivion. That is why I modded it to my heart content to match my expectation to meet up with Daggerfall. Heck, I even view that Daggerfall offer alot more "unique game content" than what Vanilla Oblivion have in practically many part of the department, from the Guild System to lore to combat to to fast travel to Main Quest to economic to even environment and atmosphere and etc.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:03 pm

Oblivion is more repetitive and there is nothing unique about it, it's just randomly generated forests all over the place.

Eh, that exactly how I view Vanilla Oblivion. That is why I modded it to my heart content to match my expectation to meet up with Daggerfall. Heck, I even view that Daggerfall offer alot more "unique game content" than what Vanilla Oblivion have in practically many part of the department, from the Guild System to lore to combat to to fast travel to Main Quest to economic to even environment and atmosphere and etc.

Believe what you want, but it's not true. Daggerfall's lacks hand-crafted quests, hand-crafted locations of any kind outside of the main quest, hand-placed dialogue, faction plots, or anything intentionally made to be discovered outside of the main quest. It also has less lore than Oblivion. Very little lore can be shown through Daggerfall's world and factions in comparison to Oblivion's and Daggerfall has about 90 books while Oblivion introduced about 140. Daggerfall is actually entirely randomly-generated. Oblivion's tree placement is randomly-generated, but the general terrain shape, towns, people, dungeons, locations, etc. are not. In Daggerfall, literally everything outside of main quest dungeons and a few palaces are randomly-generated. The armors and weapons are shaped exactly like others of similar types and are differentiated only by different colors. The ownable houses are randomly-generated. Prefer it if you want. Some people prefer the quantity and the scale, but it does not have more unique content.

Where Daggerfall objectively does something over Oblivion:

complex reputation system
amount of content
more choices in fast-travel system

Where Oblivion objectively does something over Daggerfall:

amount of lore
quest design variety
more hand-crafted/hand-placed content

With that in mind, it's still very easily possible to prefer one game's system over another as I merely said the amount of said things were objective, but to claim Daggerfall has more unique content than Oblivion in it, regardless of which game's take on content you prefer, is false. For example, I prefer Oblivion's setting to Morrowind's, but objectively, I recognize Morrowind's as a more unique one. I cannot deny that is a less-used type of setting, and I don't have to like it because of that, but I do have to recognize that as true because it is true.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:13 pm

Daggerfall didn't enforce cliches. It had a far superior main quest. They were both copy+paste, but Daggerfall was bigger. Seems like there's no reason not to prefer Daggerfall. My list goings Morrowind>Daggerfall>Oblivion/Arena (Haven't played Arena yet)

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:13 am

Believe what you want, but it's not true. Daggerfall's lacks hand-crafted quests, hand-crafted locations of any kind outside of the main quest, hand-placed dialogue, faction plots, or anything intentionally made to be discovered outside of the main quest. It also has less lore than Oblivion. Very little lore can be shown through Daggerfall's world and factions in comparison to Oblivion's and Daggerfall has about 90 books while Oblivion introduced about 140.

I think you're unfairly using the evidence to stack the deck against Daggerfall's lore. It had a good deal of things designed to be discovered outside of the main quest: witches covens, daedra summoning, vampires and vampire clans, lycanthropy, for example. And while yes, Oblivion has more books than Daggerfall (more than a lot of people give it credit for) Daggerfall introduces piles of new lore beyond the books that is woven into the gameworld. The eight divines and their spheres of influence, the daedra and their spheres of influence, the politics of the Illiac Bay, the Blades, the King of Worms, the entire history of the Septim Empire, the continets of Akavir and Thras, and a lot more besides. Take a look at those 140 Oblivion books and determine how many of them introduce concepts as crucial to the ES universe as the ones introduced in Daggerfall. Without the concepts introduced in Daggerfall, there wouldn't be much Oblivion lore at all. (There'd be no Dagon to invade in the first place, for instance.)

Anyway in spite of all that I think Daggerfall and Oblivion are much more similar games than many admit, so it's easy to see why the OP found so much to like in Daggerfall. It depends how Skyrim turns out, of course, but I think MW will come to be seen more and more as the odd man out of the ES series.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:46 pm

Believe what you want, but it's not true. Daggerfall's lacks hand-crafted quests, hand-crafted locations of any kind outside of the main quest, hand-placed dialogue, faction plots, or anything intentionally made to be discovered outside of the main quest. It also has less lore than Oblivion. Very little lore can be shown through Daggerfall's world and factions in comparison to Oblivion's and Daggerfall has about 90 books while Oblivion introduced about 140. Daggerfall is actually entirely randomly-generated. Oblivion's tree placement is randomly-generated, but the general terrain shape, towns, people, dungeons, locations, etc. are not. In Daggerfall, literally everything outside of main quest dungeons and a few palaces are randomly-generated. The armors and weapons are shaped exactly like others of similar types and are differentiated only by different colors. The ownable houses are randomly-generated. Prefer it if you want. Some people prefer the quantity and the scale, but it does not have more unique content.

.........

Where Oblivion objectively does something over Daggerfall:

amount of lore
quest design variety
more hand-crafted/hand-placed content

Oh I am quite aware the "lack" of "hand-crafted quests" but that not really the favor I would put in for Oblivion. In my view, I see those quest in Oblivion as "glorified" fetch/kill that quest with only one direction to follow. Even in Daggerfall, it is in common that there are usually more than 1 way to finish a quest and some of them usually conflict in faction A and faction B.

Lore wise, I would not denied that Oblivion gave us some lore or books. Problem is, some of the lore either conflict with the one in the past or some are not presented out ingame to even notice it exist. In term of confliction, its practically how all the guild, one way or another, become truly the odd one out of the series. Mages Guild is essentially good vs evil and practically turn all necromancers into bad guys while nerfing the awesomenesss of the King of Worm to a pathetic Altmer with no reason to fight the Mage Guild other than them being evil. The Fighter Guild are incompetent and worry way too much about a another company of drug-influnece warriors. The Dark Brotherhood switch from professional contract killers to a bunch of Hot Topic, crazy Cultist saying "Blood for Sithis!!!!" every time, not to mention the incompetent of how they handle the traitor in the later quest line. The whole Divine Church turn from civil rivalry and their own uniqueness to become a generic holy place in each city. Spears and Crossbow are usually consider in the Imperial Army (former is better represent of the Roman Army, latter exist to those are svck at archer and were mass produce), but are out due to time. Same with the Jungle.

Then it comes to prerandom - generated, Oblivion is still this even in dungeon and surrounding, which are all pre-randomized to some extend. As for "unique content", we are talkiung about a game that have a horrible Leveled-List where one just get crap when getting to the "end" of the dungeon. I would consider this in a place for Morrowind if one want to talk about "unique content". With that said, just because of how Daggerfall handle the placement of their items does not make it bad nor how Oblivion does not it make it good either.

Main quest and what not, The Byzantine practically fill that part, but I would add that even in the Main Quest of Daggerfall, it offer all the politic, backstabbing, and the Orcs in such a fine matter. Such topic contribute to what happen and why it happen. The only thing I can get off from Oblivion's Main Quest is simply a Demonic Invasion and finding Sean Bean. The only thing I can get some unique lore form it is basically Kvatch was doom, the Blood of the Divines part, and the insane rambling of Mankar. Heck, I can view that even Shivering Isle have more content to the Main Quest than what Oblivion have to offer.

With that in mind, it's still very easily possible to prefer one game's system over another as I merely said the amount of said things were objective, but to claim Daggerfall has more unique content than Oblivion in it, regardless of which game's take on content you prefer, is false. For example, I prefer Oblivion's setting to Morrowind's, but objectively, I recognize Morrowind's as a more unique one. I cannot deny that is a less-used type of setting, and I don't have to like it because of that, but I do have to recognize that as true because it is true.

Except there is no true "objective" to this. Its all subjective to this and both mindset complicit, alot. Saying that it is false that Daggerfall have less content than Oblivion is false itself. I can even go as far that Daggerfall and Morrowind are equal in retrospect to what both game have to offer.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:15 pm

Oblivion is more repetitive and there is nothing unique about it, it's just randomly generated forests all over the place.

I don't agree with this. There are as many regions in Cyrodiil as there were in Morrowind, for example (I can't speak about Daggerfall). In my opinion the difference between Vvardenfell and Cyrodiil is that Cyrodiil's regional differences were more subtle. Cyrodiil's regions aren't abrupt, color-coded, WoW-style "zones." They blend into one another with a great deal more taste and artistry than they did in Morrowind. The transition from flat swampland in southern Cyrodiil to hilly, deciduous woodlands in central Cyrodiil to snowy mountains in northern Cyrodiil (and rolling grasslands in Western Cyrodiil) was gradual and realistic. In my opinion Oblivion's game world is more "advlt."

There's a spot near the Fields of Kummu where the player has only to take a couple of steps to move from lush Ascadian Isles to the barren rock of the Ashlands. There's nothing that crude in Cyrodiil. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe it's too subtle for many people to pick up on. I don't know.

They were both copy+paste, but Daggerfall was bigger. Seems like there's no reason not to prefer Daggerfall.

I have at least two reason not to prefer Daggerfall.

First, I don't like randomly-generated game worlds. I don't mind a game world that was created with input from software (as Oblivion was) but, once created, I want that game world to be stable, "finished." I don't want the game world to change every time I exit a dungeon. One of the main reasons I play open-world games like the the Elder Scrolls series is because I like to explore. If the world is constantly being re-invented it ruins any feeling of accomplishment I might feel when I explore.

Second, is the combat system of using a mouse to swing a sword. That alone is enough to keep me from playing Daggerfall. In my opinion, it's an utterly hideous system and I'm glad they dropped it.

some of the lore either conflict with the one in the past or some are not presented out ingame to even notice it exist.

Yes, but Bethesda has continually changed lore - changing lore did not begin with Oblivion. What happened to the Vvardenfell towns of Stonewood and Star Wound, or The Great Scathes region? How did Ebonheart magically get transported from mainland Morrowind to Vvardenfell? How is it that Solstheim suddenly appeared out of nowhere (displacing a great chunk of northwestern Morrowind and requiring that all future maps be redrawn)? The list of changes Bethesda made to lore before Oblivion came along is a long one.

In my opinion it's unfair to single out Oblivion for this complaint.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:44 pm

Yes, but Bethesda has continually changed lore - changing lore did not begin with Oblivion. What happened to the Vvardenfell towns of Stonewood and Star Wound, or The Great Scathes region? How did Ebonheart magically get transported from mainland Morrowind to Vvardenfell? How is it that Solstheim suddenly appeared out of nowhere (displacing a great chunk of northwestern Morrowind and requiring that all future maps be redrawn)? The list of changes Bethesda made to lore before Oblivion came along is a long one.

In my opinion it's unfair to single out Oblivion for this complaint.

Stonewood is Balmora, there two Ebonheart (one in the inland is blown up by Almalexia, I think, and the one at Vvardenfell is there to keep an eye on Vivec by the Imperial and/or Hlaalu). Solstheim is pretty much an addition rather than a subtraction, like the Shivering Isle; I would assume the Great Scathes are mountains or lava rivers within Molag Amur, and I don't really remember Star Wound other than from the Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec. With that said, I view on how Oblivion handle these kind of thing: either removing something (this goes from some weaponry to Sutch) or change it to give it a "personality" or lack of (The Guilds and Temple are guilty of this). Of course, there are lore Oblivion added, but one have to dig deep to get these new lore; in otherwords, presentation isn't one of their best department.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:17 am

Well after playing Daggerfall for a wee bit,I have to say it totally destroys Oblivion when it comes to immersion. Despite its super-antiquated graphics it still feel 100 times more alive and real to me. The cities actually feel like cities because of the realistic size, not some miniature kids model. The quests feel grand in Daggerfall, where you actually have to travel for days or weeks to reach your goal. Although the landscape is horrible bland and I always use fasttravel, it still feel grand, cause the distance is there! I cannot simply walk out of of town and 50 meters ahead is the ancient temple ruin noone has set foot in for decades..
The fasttravel in Daggerfall is very well implemented, but they could never use such a fast travel in Oblivion, it would just feel silly with such a pathetic small land. Just imagine having stepped out of the sewers and just finished your business in the Imperial City: 'Ah time to journey to Chorrol and deliver that amulet. Let's see, the journey will take about a week, and if I stay at the inns I can.. What?! I could just run there on foot, will take me 5 minutes! Stupid game..' :brokencomputer:

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:58 pm

I dislike Oblivion's randomness just as much as Daggerfall's, I'm not one of those types that will pretend like Daggerfall was the greatest TES (that goes to Morrowind) but I do take exception to one things in this thread that I can't let go unpunished.

It also has less lore than Oblivion. Very little lore can be shown through Daggerfall's world and factions in comparison to Oblivion's and Daggerfall has about 90 books while Oblivion introduced about 140.

I don't have an exact number of books written for Oblivion, but I know it's nowhere near 140. The vast majority of books used in Oblivion were written for Morrowind (in a lot of cases even for Daggerfall and Battlespire or Redguard). Daggerfall's books were written for Daggerfall, which makes its 90 books figure much more impressive. The books written for vanilla Oblivion (not counting Knights of the Nine or Shivering Isles which did introduce new lore books) did not significantly add to the lore in any way (which is doubly disappointing since so much of it concerned the ayleids), were generally 1 or 2 pages in length, and didn't even bother to invent an author since they were written by some lame newbie quest designers rather than true lore-masters like MK and Ted Peterson who wrote most of the series in-game literature before Oblivion.

Oblivion gave almost nothing to the lore of TES, in some cases actively detracted from it, in a lot of cases actively ignored it. In fact, that one aspect of the game was so vehemently pathetic that they contracted out to get the Knights of the Nine lore written by MK (michael kirkbride).

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:51 am

I dislike Oblivion's randomness just as much as Daggerfall's, I'm not one of those types that will pretend like Daggerfall was the greatest TES (that goes to Morrowind) but I do take exception to one things in this thread that I can't let go unpunished.

I don't have an exact number of books written for Oblivion, but I know it's nowhere near 140. The vast majority of books used in Oblivion were written for Morrowind (in a lot of cases even for Daggerfall and Battlespire or Redguard). Daggerfall's books were written for Daggerfall, which makes its 90 books figure much more impressive. The books written for vanilla Oblivion (not counting Knights of the Nine or Shivering Isles which did introduce new lore books) did not significantly add to the lore in any way (which is doubly disappointing since so much of it concerned the ayleids), were generally 1 or 2 pages in length, and didn't even bother to invent an author since they were written by some lame newbie quest designers rather than true lore-masters like MK and Ted Peterson who wrote most of the series in-game literature before Oblivion.

Oblivion gave almost nothing to the lore of TES, in some cases actively detracted from it, in a lot of cases actively ignored it. In fact, that one aspect of the game was so vehemently pathetic that they contracted out to get the Knights of the Nine lore written by MK (michael kirkbride).

I've counted. Daggerfall introduced about 90 books to the series, Morrowind (with expansions and DLC) introduced about 230 to the series and Oblivion (with expansions and DLC) introduced about 140 to the series. Count them up for yourself.

If you don't wish to count DLC and expansions, fine, don't. Just count the ones from Oblivion as it was released. I didn't mark them all so you'll have to to check each link, but it introduced plenty on its own. Whatever you subjectively think of that existing lore is your own problem to deal with, though, as I personally don't see what is wrong with any of it:

Spoiler

1. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Life_of_Uriel_Septim_VII
2. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rislav_The_Righteous
3. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ahzirr_Traajijazeri
4. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_the_Fighters_Guild
5. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness
6. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Five_Tenets
7. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Followers_of_the_Gray_Fox
8. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hiding_With_the_Shadow
9. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manifesto_Cyrodiil_Vampyrum

10. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancer%27s_Moon
11. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pension_of_the_Ancestor_Moth
12. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar
13. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief
14. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Warrior
15. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:King
16. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_1
17. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_2

18. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_3
19. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_4
20. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar_Prince
21. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Exodus
22. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Knightfall
23. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Purloined_Shadows
24. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Refugees
25. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief_of_Virtue
26. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Adabal-a

27. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Amulet_of_Kings
28. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor
29. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man
30. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cleansing_of_the_Fane
31. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daughter_of_the_Niben
32. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer_History_and_Culture
33. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fall_of_Vitharn
34. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Last_King_of_the_Ayleids
35. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Legendary_Sancre_Tor

36. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lost_Histories_of_Tamriel
37. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Remanada
38. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_1
39. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_2
40. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_3
41. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_4
42. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_5
43. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_6
44. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_7

45. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Treatise_on_Ayleidic_Cities
46. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Advances_in_Lock_Picking
47. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Reference_Text
48. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bark_and_Sap
49. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Calcinator_Treatise
50. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:De_Rerum_Dirennis
51. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:An_Elytra%27s_Life
52. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:From_Frog_to_Man
53. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fundaments_of_Alchemy
54. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heavy_Armor_Repair

55. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_Lock_Picking
56. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Immortal_Blood
57. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Light_Armor_Repair
58. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Liminal_Bridges
59. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lithnilian%27s_Research_Notes
60. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Liturgy_of_Affliction
61. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Living_Woods
62. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mace_Etiquette
63. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic_from_the_Sky

64. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Armor
65. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Arms
66. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Spellcraft
67. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Xedilian
68. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Predecessors
69. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Proper_Lock_Design
70. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods
71. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Saints_and_Seducers
72. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Apothecary

73. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Bestiary
74. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Souls,_Black_and_White
75. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Standing_Stones
76. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Daedra
77. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Way_of_the_Exposed_Palm
78. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Agnar%27s_Journal
79. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Amantius_Allectus%27_Diary
80. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ancotar%27s_Journal
81. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Bloody_Journal
82. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Brenus_Astis%27_Journal

83. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cap%27n_Dugal%27s_Journal
84. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cindanwe%27s_Notebook
85. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dar-Ma%27s_Diary
86. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Diary_of_Springheel_Jak
87. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Doors_of_Oblivion
88. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Field_Journal
89. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Journal
90. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Father_of_the_Niben

91. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Frostcrag_Spire_Memoirs
92. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gelebourne%27s_Journal
93. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greywyn%27s_Journal
94. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Grommok%27s_Journal
95. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus
96. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Log_of_the_Emma_May
97. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Path_of_Transcendence
98. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ramblings_of_Audens_Avidius
99. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Red_Kitchen_Reader

100. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sacred_Witness
101. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sir_Amiel%27s_Journal
102. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traelius%27_Journal

103. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traitor%27s_Diary
104. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Macabre_Manifest
105. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Report:_Disaster_at_Ionith
106. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Warp_in_the_West_(book)
107. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysterium_Xarxes
108. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tome_of_Unlife
109. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legend_of_Krately_House
110. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mannimarco,_King_of_Worms
111. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Ravings_of_Fenroy
112. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Song_of_Hrormir
113. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial

114. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myth_or_Menace%3F
115. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._VI
116. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._IX
117. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._XII
118. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bible_of_the_Deep_Ones
119. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Blessings_of_Sheogorath
120. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Divining_the_Elder_Scolls
121. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heretical_Thoughts

122. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Modern_Heretics
123. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_1
124. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_2
125. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_3
126. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_4
127. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myths_of_Sheogorath
128. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Opusculus_Lamae_Bal_ta_Mezzamortie
129. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Prophet_Arden-Sul
130. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shezarr_and_the_Divines
131. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ten_Commands:_Nine_Divines
132. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Trials_of_St._Alessia

133. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Glories_and_Laments
134. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Anvil
135. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bravil
136. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bruma
137. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Cheydinhal
138. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Chorrol
139. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_the_Imperial_City
140. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Leyawiin
141. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_New_Sheoth
142. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Skingrad

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:58 pm

I've counted. Daggerfall introduced about 90 books to the series, Morrowind (with expansions and DLC) introduced about 230 to the series and Oblivion (with expansions and DLC) introduced about 140 to the series. Count them up for yourself.

If you don't wish to count DLC and expansions, fine, don't. Just count the ones from Oblivion as it was released. I didn't mark them all so you'll have to to check each link, but it introduced plenty on its own. Whatever you subjectively think of that existing lore is your own problem to deal with, though, as I personally don't see what is wrong with any of it:

Spoiler

1. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Life_of_Uriel_Septim_VII
2. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rislav_The_Righteous
3. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ahzirr_Traajijazeri
4. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_the_Fighters_Guild
5. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fire_and_Darkness
6. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Five_Tenets
7. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Followers_of_the_Gray_Fox
8. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hiding_With_the_Shadow
9. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manifesto_Cyrodiil_Vampyrum

10. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancer%27s_Moon
11. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pension_of_the_Ancestor_Moth
12. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar
13. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief
14. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Warrior
15. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:King
16. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_1
17. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_2

18. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_3
19. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account,_Book_4
20. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Beggar_Prince
21. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Exodus
22. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Knightfall
23. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Purloined_Shadows
24. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Refugees
25. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thief_of_Virtue
26. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Adabal-a

27. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Amulet_of_Kings
28. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor
29. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man
30. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cleansing_of_the_Fane
31. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daughter_of_the_Niben
32. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer_History_and_Culture
33. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fall_of_Vitharn
34. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Last_King_of_the_Ayleids
35. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Legendary_Sancre_Tor

36. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lost_Histories_of_Tamriel
37. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Remanada
38. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_1
39. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_2
40. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_3
41. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_4
42. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_5
43. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_6
44. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_7

45. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Treatise_on_Ayleidic_Cities
46. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Advances_in_Lock_Picking
47. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Reference_Text
48. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bark_and_Sap
49. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Calcinator_Treatise
50. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:De_Rerum_Dirennis
51. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:An_Elytra%27s_Life
52. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:From_Frog_to_Man
53. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fundaments_of_Alchemy
54. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heavy_Armor_Repair

55. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_Lock_Picking
56. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Immortal_Blood
57. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Light_Armor_Repair
58. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Liminal_Bridges
59. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lithnilian%27s_Research_Notes
60. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Liturgy_of_Affliction
61. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Living_Woods
62. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mace_Etiquette
63. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic_from_the_Sky

64. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Armor
65. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Arms
66. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Spellcraft
67. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Manual_of_Xedilian
68. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Predecessors
69. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Proper_Lock_Design
70. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods
71. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Saints_and_Seducers
72. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Apothecary

73. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Shivering_Bestiary
74. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Souls,_Black_and_White
75. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Standing_Stones
76. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Daedra
77. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Way_of_the_Exposed_Palm
78. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Agnar%27s_Journal
79. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Amantius_Allectus%27_Diary
80. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ancotar%27s_Journal
81. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Bloody_Journal
82. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Brenus_Astis%27_Journal

83. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cap%27n_Dugal%27s_Journal
84. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cindanwe%27s_Notebook
85. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dar-Ma%27s_Diary
86. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Diary_of_Springheel_Jak
87. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Doors_of_Oblivion
88. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Field_Journal
89. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Drothan%27s_Journal
90. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Father_of_the_Niben

91. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Frostcrag_Spire_Memoirs
92. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gelebourne%27s_Journal
93. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greywyn%27s_Journal
94. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Grommok%27s_Journal
95. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus
96. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Log_of_the_Emma_May
97. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Path_of_Transcendence
98. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ramblings_of_Audens_Avidius
99. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Red_Kitchen_Reader

100. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sacred_Witness
101. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sir_Amiel%27s_Journal
102. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traelius%27_Journal

103. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Traitor%27s_Diary
104. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Macabre_Manifest
105. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Report:_Disaster_at_Ionith
106. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Warp_in_the_West_(book)
107. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysterium_Xarxes
108. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tome_of_Unlife
109. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legend_of_Krately_House
110. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mannimarco,_King_of_Worms
111. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Ravings_of_Fenroy
112. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Song_of_Hrormir
113. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial

114. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myth_or_Menace%3F
115. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._VI
116. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._IX
117. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._XII
118. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bible_of_the_Deep_Ones
119. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Blessings_of_Sheogorath
120. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Divining_the_Elder_Scolls
121. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heretical_Thoughts

122. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Modern_Heretics
123. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_1
124. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_2
125. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_3
126. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_4
127. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myths_of_Sheogorath
128. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Opusculus_Lamae_Bal_ta_Mezzamortie
129. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Prophet_Arden-Sul
130. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shezarr_and_the_Divines
131. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ten_Commands:_Nine_Divines
132. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Trials_of_St._Alessia

133. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Glories_and_Laments
134. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Anvil
135. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bravil
136. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Bruma
137. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Cheydinhal
138. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Chorrol
139. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_the_Imperial_City
140. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Leyawiin
141. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_New_Sheoth
142. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guide_to_Skingrad

Seti, half those books are diaries or guides to towns.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:45 am

Seti, half those books are diaries or guides to towns.

I don't even think these books impacted the lore the way daggerfall books did :confused:

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:54 pm

Seti, half those books are diaries or guides to towns.

No, about 9 are guides to towns and about 25 are personal books of some kind, which is hardly half, but even so, so what? How does viewpoint affect what we've learned? Brenius Astis' journal describes the flora and fauna of Cyrodiil. Lord Lovidicus' Journal details the romantic relationship between a Cyrodiilic vampire, his servant, and what isolation/separation from blood does to the mind of said vampire. Sir Amiel's journal detailed the final, failing days of the order of the Knights of the Nine. Agnar's journal gives some information on hunt for the Uderfrykte Matron and some extra backstory to Svenja. Valuable Cyrodiilic flora is detailed in Amantius Allectus' journal. Ancotar's journal gives insight into magical experimentation. A Bloody journal gives insight into the life of a Fighters Guild member living in Cyrodiil. Cap'n Dugal's journal gives insight into the life of sailers of Tamriel. How is that not valuable? Springheel Jak's diary gives insight into the life of a Cyrodiilic vampire. The Doors of Oblivion is like the Cyrodiilic Dante's Inferno. It shows the personal experience of one witnessing the realms of Oblivion. Father of the Niben gives insight into a historical hero of Bravil. The Red Kitchen Reader describes the cuisine of Cyrodiil. The town guides show a clear, Nibenean bias on the viewing of Cyrodiilic towns. There are also documents I have not included in my list that add plenty to the world of Tamriel by detailing viewpoints from the personal lives of those who inhabit it... which is something vitally lacking from Daggerfall. How is a person supposed to feel that Tamriel is a real and deep place if the people inhabiting it are merely stoic text boxes?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Notes

If we're going to be selective about viewpoints, than I cut out things from Daggerfall's list, too, no? What about one of my personal favorites from Daggerfall, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Jokes? Should I cut that out of my list for Daggerfall? How about a poem with with no actual meaning such as that of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Rude_Song? It's a similar situation. Should I cut out the books on Faeries and Nymphs, as well? They're too "cliche", right?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Books

For all the criticism Oblivion gets for supposedly lacking lore, I wonder how much of the lore those that criticize it actually bothered to learn:

I often wonder why people rarely even seem to know who Mankar's father is, how the Ayleids fought and subsequently lost in the first place, Mankar's implied ancestry, or the invasion of under Uriel 's orders. there are a myriad of things that rarely seem to be discussed about Oblivion's lore and people don't even seem to notice the whole Ayleid thing. Who can tell me about the sadistic practices of the Ayleids, or the tribal structure of goblins? What about Reman Cyrodiil? Where was he born? In what era did he live? What is the name "Alessia" a corruption of and who was her lover? Who is the one her lover called "uncle"? Say a few words of the Ayleid language or tell me how an Oblivion gate is opened, in detail. What is the difference between "white" and "black" souls? How did the internal conflict within the Mages' Guild cause it to collapse and who here has ever seen a hist tree before Oblivion? What did the first steal from Nocturnal and how was Sithis central to the Dark Brotherhood? Who does Count Indarys have strong ties to back in Morrowind? Tell me about the Beggar Prince? What was his/her name and how did he/she plea to ? What were the "gifts" bestowed upon him/her? Explain the folk tale of Garridan or the story of Rislav the Righteous. Who was Rislav the Righteous? Explain either the Beggar/Thief/Prince/King series or the Argonian Account series. Pelinal's seemingly holy virtues of sainthood were really only how the races of man viewed him. How was he truly not a man of such virtues? He had strong ties to and . Describe the vampires of Skyrim and Valenwood. Was there always only one tribe of vampires in Cyrodiil? If no, what happened to the others?

Is crossbreeding between vampires and orcs possible? Who was at the coronation of the Emperor Gorieus? How did Uriel Septim VII's experience involving Jagar Tharn change him? Describe the Orum Gang or the Renrijra Krin. What is a famous saying of the Renrijra Krin? How did the Oblivion Crisis worsen an already troublesome situation of the empire and, specifically, Cyrodiil? Describe the coronation process of a new emperor.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:30 pm

First, I don't like randomly-generated game worlds. I don't mind a game world that was created with input from software (as Oblivion was) but, once created, I want that game world to be stable, "finished." I don't want the game world to change every time I exit a dungeon. One of the main reasons I play open-world games like the the Elder Scrolls series is because I like to explore. If the world is constantly being re-invented it ruins any feeling of accomplishment I might feel when I explore.

Wyrd, Daggerfall does not randomly generate terrain in-game. THe Random Generation was done during development.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:16 am

I often wonder why people rarely even seem to know who Mankar's father is, how the Ayleids fought and subsequently lost in the first place, Mankar's implied ancestry, or the invasion of under Uriel 's orders. there are a myriad of things that rarely seem to be discussed about Oblivion's lore and people don't even seem to notice the whole Ayleid thing. Who can tell me about the sadistic practices of the Ayleids, or the tribal structure of goblins? What about Reman Cyrodiil? Where was he born? In what era did he live? What is the name "Alessia" a corruption of and who was her lover? Who is the one her lover called "uncle"? Say a few words of the Ayleid language or tell me how an Oblivion gate is opened, in detail. What is the difference between "white" and "black" souls? How did the internal conflict within the Mages' Guild cause it to collapse and who here has ever seen a hist tree before Oblivion? What did the first steal from Nocturnal and how was Sithis central to the Dark Brotherhood? Who does Count Indarys have strong ties to back in Morrowind? Tell me about the Beggar Prince? What was his/her name and how did he/she plea to ? What were the "gifts" bestowed upon him/her? Explain the folk tale of Garridan or the story of Rislav the Righteous. Who was Rislav the Righteous? Explain either the Beggar/Thief/Prince/King series or the Argonian Account series. Pelinal's seemingly holy virtues of sainthood were really only how the races of man viewed him. How was he truly not a man of such virtues? He had strong ties to and . Describe the vampires of Skyrim and Valenwood. Was there always only one tribe of vampires in Cyrodiil? If no, what happened to the others?

Is crossbreeding between vampires and orcs possible? Who was at the coronation of the Emperor Gorieus? How did Uriel Septim VII's experience involving Jagar Tharn change him? Describe the Orum Gang or the Renrijra Krin. What is a famous saying of the Renrijra Krin? How did the Oblivion Crisis worsen an already troublesome situation of the empire and, specifically, Cyrodiil? Describe the coronation process of a new emperor.

Is this being graded? You never said there would be a pop quiz this week!

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:16 pm

Is this being graded? You never said there would be a pop quiz this week!

Yes! You fail! I'm giving you the worst grade possible... an A double -!

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:34 pm

Yes! You fail! I'm giving you the worst grade possible... an A double -!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ5w3xtiqXs

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:54 am

Anyway in spite of all that I think Daggerfall and Oblivion are much more similar games than many admit, so it's easy to see why the OP found so much to like in Daggerfall. It depends how Skyrim turns out, of course, but I think MW will come to be seen more and more as the odd man out of the ES series.

Why do you say "Morrowind will come to be seen more and more as the the odd man out of the ES series"?

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:58 pm

Why do you say "Morrowind will come to be seen more and more as the the odd man out of the ES series"?

I suppose I was projecting into the future on the assumption that future games will be more like Oblivion than Morrowind, but honestly my opinion of Morrowind changes from hour to hour. Sometimes I think it's a half-finished alpha build of a game that put in a great universe and then forgot to add the gameplay, other times I think it's the artistic pinnacle of the TES series. I honestly haven't played Morrowind since before Oblivion came out, and the thing on my harddrive now is a misshapen mass of mods that bears little resemblance to the original game.

Daggerfall has been my favorite game of all time since I first played it 14 years ago, but it was still primarily a dungeon crawl made by a bunch of dudes in a basemant. Oblivion and Skyrim are large "open-world" games, a genre that didn't exist when Daggerfall came out, made by an enormously successful game making juggernaut. Morrowind comes in between, and has elements of both eras. It's the game that's least about walking around killing monsters and the most about exploring. I wasn't making a value judgment on Morrowind, but Daggerfall has its "sister games" in Arena and Battlespire, and Oblivion is probably going to be of a piece with Skyrim in many ways. Morrowind stands alone. But my model depends on Skyrim ending up a lot like Oblivion. If it, as I hope, turns out to be its own unique game experience, then we will simply have to say that every ES game is it's own beast entirely.

Look at all these personal documents I did not include in my list due to appearing as letters and notes rather than books and due to being much smaller, individually. Where are these in Daggerfall? What are the people that inhabit the province of High Rock like?

If we're going to be selective about viewpoints, than I cut out things from Daggerfall's list, too, no? What about one of my personal favorites from Daggerfall, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Jokes? Should I cut that out of my list for Daggerfall? How about a poem with with no actual meaning such as that of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Rude_Song? It's a similar situation. Should I cut out the books on Faeries and Nymphs, as well? They're too "cliche", right?

There are letters in Daggerfall, they form a major part of the main quest. Don't you think we learn something about the King of Worms when he sends you a message sewn into the chest of a zombie? And the Rude Song actually tells us a great deal about what the people of High Rock are like. Poems like that are an excellent tool in studying the cultures of various peoples, both in Tamriel and in our own world. You're selling these things short to say they have no actual meaning.

For all the criticism Oblivion gets for supposedly lacking lore, I wonder how much of the lore those that criticize it actually bothered to learn:

I often wonder why people rarely even seem to know who Mankar's father is, how the Ayleids fought and subsequently lost in the first place, Mankar's implied ancestry, or the invasion of under Uriel 's orders. there are a myriad of things that rarely seem to be discussed about Oblivion's lore and people don't even seem to notice the whole Ayleid thing. Who can tell me about the sadistic practices of the Ayleids, or the tribal structure of goblins? What about Reman Cyrodiil? Where was he born? In what era did he live? What is the name "Alessia" a corruption of and who was her lover? Who is the one her lover called "uncle"? Say a few words of the Ayleid language or tell me how an Oblivion gate is opened, in detail. What is the difference between "white" and "black" souls? How did the internal conflict within the Mages' Guild cause it to collapse and who here has ever seen a hist tree before Oblivion? What did the first steal from Nocturnal and how was Sithis central to the Dark Brotherhood? Who does Count Indarys have strong ties to back in Morrowind? Tell me about the Beggar Prince? What was his/her name and how did he/she plea to ? What were the "gifts" bestowed upon him/her? Explain the folk tale of Garridan or the story of Rislav the Righteous. Who was Rislav the Righteous? Explain either the Beggar/Thief/Prince/King series or the Argonian Account series. Pelinal's seemingly holy virtues of sainthood were really only how the races of man viewed him. How was he truly not a man of such virtues? He had strong ties to and . Describe the vampires of Skyrim and Valenwood. Was there always only one tribe of vampires in Cyrodiil? If no, what happened to the others?

Is crossbreeding between vampires and orcs possible? Who was at the coronation of the Emperor Gorieus? How did Uriel Septim VII's experience involving Jagar Tharn change him? Describe the Orum Gang or the Renrijra Krin. What is a famous saying of the Renrijra Krin? How did the Oblivion Crisis worsen an already troublesome situation of the empire and, specifically, Cyrodiil? Describe the coronation process of a new emperor.

We could play this game for hours, and this laundry list doesn't really give us any insights into the quality of the answers to the questions. I could go on "Who was King Eadwyre's first wife? How did Elysana plan to snatch the throne from Helseth? What was Gortwog's role in the Battle of Cryngaine Field? Who was Lysandus' father? What's the first rank in the Mage's Guild? What's the second? What's the third?"

The point is, the value we put on the answers to these questions is entirely subjective. Art is subjective, and I think we can at least agree that TES games are approaching art. I know how frustrating it can be when people are always hating on something you love. Believe me, I know. But I'm honestly not sure what you hope to accomplish by subtracting years from your life in the blood vessels you must be blowing defending Oblivion's honor. Oblivion sold a zillion copies, way more than Morrowind, and several orders of magnitude more than Daggerfall. I would venture that most of the world agrees with you that it's a better game. You are not the one who should be on the defensive. The war is over. Fans of Oblivion won.

This thread was simply about someone saying that they found something to love in Daggerfall. There was no attack on Oblivion. What do you hope to accomplish by coming in, guns blazing, your list of 140 Oblivion books tucked under your arm, insinuating that Daggerfall fans only like it because they're using their imaginations to make up for "objective" deficiencies? You could just as easily argue that Daggerfall relies less on player's imagination than the newer games. In Daggerfall, I didn't have to "imagine" my character was scared of zombies. I could pick "fear of undead." But the importance of these selections is a matter of opinion.

You've got a lot of passion for Oblivion, and that's admirable. But you're not going to change any minds. Daggerfall has been my favorite game since 9th grade, and it means a lot to me, for reason that are admittedly as emotional and personal as they are to do with the quality of the game itself. I have no doubt you feel the exact same way about Oblivion. I'm sorry you feel persecuted in your love of Oblivion. That's not fair. I really just don't see the purpose in throwing the book (literally) at everyone who would dare to have a different opinion. There are a lot of Morrowind and Daggerfall fans who felt deeply betrayed by Oblivion. That's their right, too.

On a much less serious note, I had a professor back in college who actually gave me an A - - on several papers. He despised me, but I did such good work that he knew I didn't deserve a B. It truly is the worst grade possible.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:32 pm

Still DF's books added a whole lot more to lore. Without DF, then OB wouldn't have any lore that isn't generic (it exists, I looked).

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:18 pm

Daggerfall has been my favorite game since 9th grade, and it means a lot to me, for reason that are admittedly as emotional and personal as they are to do with the quality of the game itself.

Summer of 6th grade for me.

That's when I became obsessed with TESII.