:huh:

Personally, (as far as Bethesda RPGs go) I liked the leveling system in Fallout 3 best.

Morrowind had a next to impossible difficulty curve at the beginning, unless you spent a lot of time focusing on improving early on. If you weren't careful, walking around after level 5 could cause you to run into dozens of cloud chasers who would make short work of you in no time. Once you got towards higher levels though, everything was a simple encounter.

Oblivion took a better turn, but was still far from perfect. Leveling enemies with you kept you in constant supply of loot to sell and replace everything you might have used in a fight, to offset the fact that you might have to face tough enemies around every corner (which works since most people would have at least 1 legendary item, or more.) However, it is extremely easy to break, if you simply don't sleep. You increase your stats, but enemies stay at your stated "level."

Fallout 3 fixed Oblivions system even more, forcing you to level while leaving behind all the easy to kill creatures that break up the cycle of fighting high level creatures.

I have yet to play New Vegas, but from what I hear, it improves upon the system even more.

Not to be rude but in middle school I had absolutely no problem with the difficulty and I had never played a game anything like Morrowind yet.... didnt realize people struggled with it. I think the issue is even with RPGs people expect more instant gratification nowadays. I promise because of this trend, Skyrim runs the risk of turning into the brainless, hack n slash Oblivion was. Nothing is hard to kill anymore, let alone unkillable. Whats sad is even while playing on 75% difficulty for much of my time in Oblivion I only encountered one instance where a cheap trick mixed with continual button spamming did not vanquish all my foes.

Never thought I'd be one of those people but I can see why others are anxious of TES getting dumbed down... forget the fact that you just crawled out of jail 20 minutes ago - those 4 bandits over there should be no problem to kill!

If you wander too far, or try a certain quest, you can easily be swarmed by creatures like scamps or skeletons. I have on problem with it now that I replay it, but when I first tried I had to restart at least three characters.

Maybe I'm just conservative but I guess the reason why we disagree is because when I start a game fresh, with little idea of my surroundings - I expect to die once in a while. I expect to suffer a bit. I expect to grind. Hell call me a masochist, but I like all these things. I dont like to feel like I have not worked for anything. And I sure as hell dont like to feel like leveling up is of no use because I dont truly need all those skills to advance in the game. In Oblivion I always had the feeling that with just a few important skills boosted up (assuming you actually did gain those unnecessary levels), none of the rest mattered. And neither did your tactics. Players were rarely forced to think before they attacked as long as they had a few necessities. I wanna fear for my character's life again. Unfortunately it seems like I'm in the minority on this one, but I just wish gamers had the same patience they had in the 80s and 90s.

What I dont expect is to have no dangerous areas.... did you really think Morrowind was that treacherous of a game?

At least now you wont have to choose major/minor. No more restarting for you.

I expect to grind a bit, and going slow is the name of the game in RPGs, but when even early areas of the game are fraught with land mines for low levels, it becomes a bit ridiculous.
For example, when I entered Balmora and was sent on a quest to the nearest ruin around level five, I got flocked by six Cliff racers and had to hide under a bridge. Or Clanfers in Temple quests.

And that's a bad thing? I know some pro-level scalers accuse the anti crowd of wanting to easy mode and be "bad-ass" but is it not the other way round? I mean it seems a bit wrong to step into a supposedly hostile enviroment only for it to be nothing you can't handle. Maybe its been put over poorly but this post just smacks of a carebear "now, now, now" attitude.

The sense of acheivement and progression in an RPG tends to come from taking on previously unbeatable quests or enemies I don't see how there is any in a fully level scaled world.

You got exactly how I feel on the topic. I guess some people just dont mind cowering under bridges wating for an opening. I see it as memorable experiences. Did anyone notice that the story written on each page of the article was filled with danger and peril?... well I want that.

I hate level scaled equipment in stores.

In Daggerfall ALL the shops suddenly had ebony and deadric equipment in stock when you get to higher levels, that's stupid.
In Oblivion shops ALL had crappy equipment and one magic item, that svcks too. (because of the level scaling they don't sell any good items because they don't want you to be able to get them at lower levels)

Morrowind was perfect in that aspect.

As for enemies, it really depends on how they implement it. In Morrowind it was done well, in Oblivion not so well.

I really hope it isnt like FO:NV's scaling. They used scaling to make it linear; you go this way, or you die, period. I did not enjoy that.

Also not a huge fan of the encounter zone leveling, a.) it means they're probably going to go with no respawning locations again, and b.) unless you want a world filled with weenie enemies, you have to spend time grinding levels in a couple of small areas to avoid everything being a level 5 encounter zone.

FO3's scaling was passable, and fairly transparent (except for the encounter zone restriction) and it did have some unscaled locales.

Of course there is a great sense of accomplishment that comes from beating a previous invincible foe. For example, I loved the High Dragon fight in Dragon Age: Origins. You ran into the creature early on, but had no chance to kill it until you were near max level.

I think I have seen the breakdown we have in communication however. I don't want an easy curve the entire game, just towards the beginning. It makes no sense that if you stay to the roads, spend time in cities and their immediate area, you would run into hordes of powerful opponents. I expect to run into tons of high level enemies in Red Mountain, but not so many in next to the fort in Balmora.

For a decent leveling system to work, there have to be some enemies that are always a level or so above you in areas that you would expect them to be (ex: Guard captains, boss areas, lairs of powerful vampires etc.), but there should also be areas where the enemies are always lower than you.

Morrowinds problem came from it having too many areas that would throw you an enemy that didn't make sense in that location, especially early in the game when you had to swing six times to hit once. Later on, once you've had time to develop your skills, it all felt much more natural.

Ah, fair enough. We're pretty much on the same page then. I agree that the world should have a logic to it and that having two areas with levels of danger that could not plausibly exist together next to each other is bad. I'd rather this was sorted through better design and zoning rather than scaling though.

You say linear, i say structured. Yes it wasn't as free as Oblivion but i never felt constrained or restrained from doing something. There's a clear path through the game but you don't have to follow it and the game doesn't unduly punish you if you run off and do your own thing. I mean i did the Black mountain q at level 5 by using a stealth boy. That wasn't part of the natural progress but i could still do it.

I agree with you. I couldn't describe it until you posted this but NV was structured in a well though-out and logical way. I'd love for Bethesda to take a similar approach for Skyrim.

I don't care. As long as this scenario is going to happen.

As a noob level 1 mage with destruction of 20. A rumor I heard from a NPC in some town, "Some say vampires live near XXXXX blah blah blah blah" Then being a smart ass I actually go there. I end up as a vamp snack in 2 seconds and have to reload a save.

Similarly, I am level 50, max everything and defeated the world destroying dragon, and a rat or hell even any common bandit comes at me, it best be getting annihilated in 2secs. everytime.

If that doesn't happen then it's wrong.

RPG fellas.

That second scenario could be annoying, depending on how you are supposed to "defeat" the "final boss."

Oblivion didn't even expect YOU to defeat the final boss, just some monk with world-shattering magic. In Morrowind you couldn't kill the final boss at all (in the traditional sense), just severed his connection to his power.

The point is that what’s the point of leveling up if the world is just going to level with you? Why level at all?

As your character evolves into some sort of hero, the small time enemies that threatened them are no longer any match for them. They move on to greater enemies and greater threats. The challenge increases, but so does your sense of progression. That sense of growth and exploration is one of the things that separates games like TES from other genres.

I do.

It would make me run and hide. It would make me fear dragons. It would feel like a huge accomplishment when I slay that dragon later on. Most importantly, it would make me feel as though the world evolved according to its own rules.

Good zone /plot design would ensure that you didn't get whacked by a level 50 dragon right out of the turorial. But an early meeting with a high-level dragon, with the choice to fight it or run away, and one of these options obviously wrong, would be amazing.

I really don't get people's need to be able to kill anything at any level / equipment / skillset. What's the point of having enemies at all if there is no danger (other than the danger of forgetting to block once every couple of seconds)?

Enemies should make you consider your options, not just as a player ("how good am I at kiting this guy while throwing fireballs") but as a character in the game ("Should my thief/assassin make a frontal attack on this group of well-armed bandits?"). Fleeing should occasionally be the option that makes most sense, especially if you get in over your head. At the same time, the game world should make enough sense that the more cautious player can work out the probability of getting in over his head, and for the most part avoid this.

At the same time, why is it a problem that, at a high level, some enemies are easy to kill? A lot could be done with low-level enemies to avoid them being boring. Maybe they flee a few times if encountered alone, then gang up on you ten-to-one. Maybe they yield and offer you gold to spare their lives, making them a lot more believable - bandits prey on the weak, right?

Just to be clear: I don't want an easy endgame where you steamroll everything. I want a sense of progression, a believable world, a mortal fear of certain enemies for a large portion of the game, and the freedom to make a mistake. In Oblivion, it was almost impossible to make a bad decision. So, all decisions were meaningless / cosmetic.

The levelling in Fallout 3 was much improved, and the 'intelligent quest system' that they are hinting at (quest dungeon is chosen and populated depending on your level and exploration pattern) sounds worlds better than the Oblivion system, so I'm hopeful. But I would still prefer a game with as little levelling as possible.

The fact that people are calling the Oblivion level scaling 'ok' really bemuses me. It was a huge, huge flaw, and one that negatively effected many other aspects of the game (believable world, character identity, an otherwise reasonably good combat system, thrill of exploration).

Word.

Yeah. Level scaling is fine for me. Specially since they are using FO3 style. That way new players can actually wander, not just be in utter darkness and don't have the courage to go anywhere. And if you are max level then it still isn't super-easy.

I mention this at every level scaling thread, and I'll mention it again - if there's level scaling like francesco's mod I couldn't be happier.

It solves bandits commonly seen in glass armour (and marauders in daedric), it gives a lot more dungeon variety, it keeps challenges in the game at high levels (bosses, and big groups of enemies to go with them), while clearly feeling more powerful (encountering lots of enemies that are many levels below you). In early levels you'll often be running for your life out of dungeons, as you have a proper chance to find a goblin berserker or named (static) NPC boss in dungeons as early as level 1. Still, you can enter every area (it's an open world RPG after all), and get some decent loot out of caves if you're careful enough.

I really hope they looked at that mod and implemented some of it.

I think if implemented correctly, it could be great.

No one wants to beat the game at Level 1, and no one wants levelling to have no real effect other than prolonging battles, but most people don't want spend hours grinding just so they can get through the main quest or even explore at all. I see why they introduced it. The problem with fixed levels is that it conflicts with the ethos of a sandbox game. You can't go anywhere and do anything when you're forced into a small area of the world because most places are too dangerous (and I mean the overworld, not dungeons and such). It's a tricky prospect though. I'm not entirely sure what the best way to do would be.

I think simply making way more use of level minimums/maximums would be a good start. Anyway, I'll trust Bethesda's judgement on this one.

I'm a huge fan of level scaling although it was slightly too primitive and extreme in Oblivion. Now in Skyrim á la Fallout 3 a nice mix that makes the game balanced. I am so happy.

*laughs*

Allright, do me a favor. Create a new character, and go to New Vegas by a straight line, rather than the route the game wants you to take immediately after character creation. Go on, I'll wait here.

*waits*

So, how'd you like the spammed Giant Radscorpions and Cazadors? Did you kill one? I bet you have less than a clip of ammo for your 9mm left!

One shotting everything below your level is stupid, but so is seeing bandits decked out in glass armor, there needs to be a balance between the two systems.

Sort of embarrassing, but I never knew that's how FO3's leveling worked :I.

That seems like a pretty good system though, but I'm wondering if problems could occur from a level 1 character exploring most of the world map, having the zones "locked" at low levels, and then returning a few levels later to wipe the floor with them...

However, I sort of remember returning to areas I previously visited before downloading Broken Steel, and instead of encountering normal Rad Scorpions, I encountered more powerful Albino Rad Scorpions, maybe this system resets it's level locks every once in a while?