What if ur character knows the item is enchanted with fire (cause its got flames on it) but doesnt know anything else?????!!?!??!?!?

?!?!?! ?!?!? !?!??!?!?!

SOrry just took a bunch of No-Explode and now I'm all hyper. CYA LATAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh

What I don't understand is that it's half assed that is:

You have an armor rating - but nowhere in game can you find out what that means in terms of mitigation. Which means you can't make an informed decision on two pieces of gear with varying stats.


If you're showing numbers, show them all. If you're not wanting to show them, don't show any. this halfway house is just annoying.

Yeah, the documentation is really really terrible. I guess we will have to wait for the creation kit to learn what the few numbers we get actually mean ...

select the spell under the magic menu, and look, what is that you see?

numbers?

They show numbers to give an 'estimate',a general idea,otherwise you wouldnt have a clue what the best gear was untill you actually tried it out to compare.
And then there would be even more complaints.

Stats and migitation are two more number-oriented terms that have no place in TES.

Weapons and armour are simple here:
They hit harder and keep more damage out,the higher lvl you go.
small streamlined weapons are fast and light,large bulky ones are slow and heavy,same counts for armour.
And if it has an enchantment,it has a nice aditional effect.
But thats the end of it.there are no stats or damage migitation numbers anywhere.Thats MMO content.
And TES is no MMO,nor will it ever be one.

modern design philosophy seems to assume that the player base is a bunch of 3rd graders with a pathological fear of math. seeing as numerical representation is the single most universally understood language in humanity.... i really dont understand this.

so what im saying is that possibly due to some deep-seeded insecurity issues about getting a C on that one important algebra test, a lot of people are scared of numbers and prefer vague, safer representations like bars and icons and pretty flashy things. to me RPGs are about controlling your character, and the more precise the control, generally the better: it doesnt get anymore precise than numbers.

which is why it baffles me as to why people want to abstract everything away; you know every game IS just all numbers right? replacing them with meters and other fanciful things isnt changing anything but how obnoxious the game is about giving you information. and quite frankly, skyrim is terrible at giving you the information you need. im not just talking about never knowing how your new... well, anything is effecting an enemy, but about the fact that nowhere in the game can i learn what the flying frik "ravage health" does or what specifically a shout does. does animal allegiance summon an animal or turn a nearby animal? how near; 10ft or 300? any level restrictions; can i not turn a level 80 mammoth for instance? do you people really prefer basking in ignorance and never knowing these things? cause that would say a lot.

Numbers seem to scare and confuse people even if they are simple or explained. I'm getting sick of all of the information being hidden away behind bars and ratings. Functionality is being sacrificed over it.

I thought someone may mention that and that is I picked "ARMOR" deliberately

Because in just about every game since forever, armour values have had diminishing returns in terms of rating/mitigation. The higher you go, the less each 'armor point' tends to be worth.


As I said - you either have all numbers, or none. A middle ground is pointless.


Edit: Numbers aren't the hallmark of MMOs.....they're they hallmark of RPGS. Since time began!

I'll compare Skyrim to Real Life ONE MORE TIME:

you try figuring out how many things you've had to figure out for yourself the hard way,how it works?




THIS game isnt.Thats -once again- an MMO influence,and Beth has done a very good job of keeping that filth out of TES.
Damage and Armour numbers are very basic in this game,no fancy numerical calculations to keep you at top dps.
Why anyway?There is nothing or no-one to compare it to? Or do you want to know the exact damage any critter or enemy does as well?
Please.

If you wanna go that road,join the people http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1279078-2419-armor-6399-damage-using-smithing-alchemy-enchanting-only-33-perks-329k-backstabs-post-3/ and before you kow it,we'll here from you again complaining about balance issues,overpowered and lack of challenge like http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1287371-thief-class-totally-broken/page__st__200__p__19439352__fromsearch__1#entry19439352

I can show you another hundred topics of similar ignorance,all whining and complaining about essentially the same subject:

Why didnt they make this game precisely how I want it to be?
Why couldnt they make this game more like [insert game here]?

The biggest mistake Bethesda made with Skyrim was the same mistake they made with Oblivion,wich was to make the game more accesible to mainstream gamers,effectively opening the door for the whining kids that flood the forums nowadays.

I said it a moment ago and I'll say it again. Pen and paper RPGs, the genesis point of the genre, were based on (and showed) numbers and detail. It wasn't a longsword +< medium increase>, it wasn't 5/GUESS damage reduction; it was a longsword +2 and a 5/+1 damage reduction.


You may hate on MMO's all you wish - but numbers were in RPG's long before even the original warcraft RTS was a spark in the developers mind.


Edit: Perhaps a concrete example of it not making sense with a half and half approach is this: The illusion school.

"Calm: Creatures and people up to LEVEL X won't fight for 30s."


Since I can't see ANY 'levels' less my own, what POSSIBLE use is this information to me? Especially since the foes scale in this game so you cannot even learn as you go. Don't tell me a spell affects level X enemies then hide their level, that is pointless.

I dont hate MMO's as i tend to play WoW myself from time to time,but that is WoW and this is TES.
No matter how any other RPG worked,THIS isnt any of those games.
For that matter,almost every other RPG also used Classes,something they deliberatly left out of this particular game,to open up more options for the player to go as they progress through the game.

Yes,RPG's have always used numbers,Skyrim still does so too,but in a very diminished form,so that it does not control the gameplay.
Micromanagement of a game is good and all if its a competitive game (like WoW),but it has very little value in a pure single player game like Skyrim.
Also,as stated before,Beth went heavilly on Immersion for this game,one of the biggest points of interest before it came out.
That explains the lack of precise detail concerning numbers.

Edit:

You do have a point with the Illusion example.
But i do believe that Vermin and 'lower' creatures still maintain a certain degree of lvl.
To be more specific,i dont believe this lvl points towards an anemy as for example a lvl 5 or lvl 15 Draugr,but more as a Mudcrab being a lvl 3 and a Sabrecat being a lvl 15.Creatures and enemies do scale,but their lvl can be more compared to an 'enemy type',so a certain lvl spell will only work on specific 'enemy type lvls'.
This is pure speculation,i havent tried out comparing the same skill lvl spell on say,a Sabrecat at lvl 5 and a Mudcrab at lvl 30.

Someone will make "Scouter" work for Skyrim. I am sure.

I know, and I get that - but see my edit, it sums up the irritation perfectly for me.

I have no issue without numbers, I have no issue with numbers. But, for me, it's got to be all or nothing because giving half the picture is just infuriating.

Not all creatures level with you. Probably only NPCs between certain ranges and the end level creatures.

was that really nesseresary... i think what you ment to say is games are being passivly aimed at younger audiances even tho they are 18+ games, the dialogue responces are a good indication of that. please dont start trival platform waring.

It's a crapshoot though. It would have been better to make a wordy-version of it rather than an arbitrary level number which only holds relevance to something you cannot see.

The perks only make that more annoying with their wording, the issue compounds. Take the numbers away, or give me more



In terms of level and keeping away from numbers, to be honest, neverwinter nights nailed it with their rating system: effortless/easy/challenging/overpowering/impossible - an idea of enemy level, but nothing concrete.

If you're on the PC you can check your weapon's effect using the console. Just open console (` key), then left click on the enemy, then type "getav health". It will show you many hitpoints they have. Close console, whack them, use console again. Far from ideal and certainly not practical for constant use, but it can help to answer some questions about the game mechanics if you have any questions.

Since skyrim aint multiplayer i think its quite reasonable not to have numbers. Although some of the perks are pretty vague, i recall some perks saying "XXX does more damage" Like how much more damage? Kinda funny that they put the percentage for some, and not for others.

Yeah, TES was never big on numbers.

Have you seen the the damage you do in Morrowind? Oh sure, you can see what damage your weapon can do, but that doesn't show the extras your skill, strenght and whatever else random factor would add. You don't see the enemy's health in numbers, you don't see the actual damage you cause, only the percentage from a bar.
You don't see the enemy's levels, you don't see their armor rating or magic resistance, you don't see their willpower stats, you don't see their elemental resistances.

So how is that any different?

True that,also:

-Everything is voiced because that was another big thing on the wishlist since Oblivion,and given the wider variety of voice actors thats a very nice job imo.
-The minimalistic journal was meant to mean less menu screen time,more gameplay time for the player,unless you WANT to spend half your time fiddling through your menu's.

You know this "only advlt people can appreatiate reading", or how "the new generation cannot read" [censored] is really... well, childish

There's a reason everything has been getting turned into the bare bones basics without being fleshed out over the last several years. The forum itself is a grand example of inability or unwillingness to read. It's the same people that complained SC2's campaign was too long.

Single player or Multi player is no excuse to hide relevant information from the player. Dual Casting and Illusions level based spells are great examples. They don't tell you what they do and you have no idea who you can cast it on. Same bloody minimalistic UI that we can't see when buffs are gone without going balls deep into another menu. There's no reason for it and it detracts from playing the game.

I remember the days with 1 hit kills, Gameover! Please turn tape over, rewind, wait 30 mins and play again... and people complain about loading times today.

Morrowind was very big on dice. You couldn't be sure you were even going to hit, let alone exactly how much damage you were going to do. Much of the gameplay mechanics were hidden, and that was okay because it was very consistent. It added to the uncertainty aspect of the game. Skyrim, on the other hand, tells you exactly how much damage you are inflicting with your weapon, you always hit, and it even automatically computes any magical effects you have active; the effects themselves being numerically precise +n% bonuses to damage (which Morrowind also didn't have).

Huge stylistic differences. Morrowind was an RPG where much was mysterious and you just had to muddle through with your best guess. Skyrim is an action game which throws numbers at you constantly.

I am confused: is it really that Skyrim does not show weapon / spell damage, after all proper modifiers (perks and whatnots)? Or that it shows them wrong?

I have to say that, despite me hating not knowing exactly how I am performing (which does not mean I need to see numbers floating around), TES games never really did well in terms of precision (never played Morrowind enough so no comment):

- Arena:It has never been clarified how and if Race and Class boni were being applied; artifacts of any material would only deal 'basic' damage, although the material would still be able to hit enemies;
- Daggerfall: Backstabbing and Critical Strikes said they deal additional fatal damage... Bonus to hit advantage said more chance to hit given foe... Weapon proficiency said - well you get it... Yet weapons were showing their proper damage range;
- Oblivion: Apparently, all the info are there. This seems to be the most organised of all TES (again I cannot comment on MW), but I can clearly see how difficult a foe will be.

How does Skyrim compare to these?

EDIT: Momaw seems to have answer some of my questions, thx!