Lines just dont cut it, I want numbers : V - Skyrim

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:31 am

Morrowind was very big on dice. You couldn't be sure you were even going to hit, let alone exactly how much damage you were going to do. Much of the gameplay mechanics were hidden, and that was okay because it was very consistent. It added to the uncertainty aspect of the game. Skyrim, on the other hand, tells you exactly how much damage you are inflicting with your weapon, you always hit, and it even automatically computes any magical effects you have active; the effects themselves being numerically precise +n% bonuses to damage (which Morrowind also didn't have).

Huge stylistic differences. Morrowind was an RPG where much was mysterious and you just had to muddle through with your best guess. Skyrim is an action game which throws numbers at you constantly.

Is it?

What's so different about wanting to know how will stamina determine my "to-hit roll" and wanting to know how much damage this Power attack will do?

No, they both end up in the same thing. Raise number -> You are better at things.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:39 pm

Pffft numbers are for accountants

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:14 pm

No, they both end up in the same thing. Raise number -> You are better at things.

Quite, but what drew it to my attention was in my early orc warrior days.

I was in mainly steel armour and happened across iron bracers offering +15% 2H damage. Awesome I though to myself, I use 2H weapons. I'll just check and see what protection I'm trading (steel > iron) for the increase in damage.

And I couldn't find it. Short of going out and getting hit for a while/hitting things for a while I could not, in any meaningful way, ascertain what I was losing and what I was gaining. In the end I rolled with the iron and did trial and error - but if that is the intention, then just remove ratings and change the wording to "makes you do more damage" as opposed to "increases X by Y value/percent" because it is currently meaningless, it has no context.

Making informed decisions with half the data is impossible.

Illusion and perks I've already discussed but this goes double for an irrevocable thing like spending a perk.

The values either matter, or the do not - this current halfway house makes NO sense and personally, I find it confusing and obstructive [when I stop to think about it, which for the reasons above, I try not to].

Edit: Actually given the abject lack of reference data and some manner of units, it could just as easily be lowering the numbers makes you better, we really don't know without trial and error (and some things are one time use/spend perks being the most obvious example)

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:00 pm

Urgh. Why do you need to know numbers? How is it insufficient just because you don't know exactly how much damage a weapon is doing and exactly how many health points you have? Some people are too math-oriented with this stuff.

I needed 131 magicka, exactly, to enter the college of Winterhold, and how much did I have; no idea. I went back home to Whiterun to enchant a ring and a necklace, by foot mind you because there are no carriages going from Wintherhold, and then back to Winterhold just to find out that the ring and necklace were not enough. I gave up and exited the game.

This is stupid, why not having numbers and bars, what's wrong with that?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:32 pm

I imagine how much complaining there would be, if Beth actually removed all numeric info on all weapons and armour and just gave descriptions like "elven, dwarven, ebony, etc....", without letting ppl know which would be more powerful and such. I doubt 90% of the ppl do not rely on KNOWING that Daedric > Elven, for instance, in choosing what to wear or wield.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:08 am

I needed 131 magicka, exactly, to enter the college of Winterhold, and how much did I have; no idea. I went back home to Whiterun to enchant a ring and a necklace, by foot mind you because there are no carriages going from Wintherhold, and then back to Winterhold just to find out that the ring and necklace were not enough. I gave up and exited the game.

This is stupid, why not having numbers and bars, what's wrong with that?

Bit late now, but the skills screen shows your actual values at any given point.

I had that exact problem (not enough mana) but fortunately I'd run into those values before.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:51 am

True that,also:

-Everything is voiced because that was another big thing on the wishlist since Oblivion,and given the wider variety of voice actors thats a very nice job imo.
-The minimalistic journal was meant to mean less menu screen time,more gameplay time for the player,unless you WANT to spend half your time fiddling through your menu's.

i dont mind those things imo it should be fully voiced but its the bit that isnt voiced that svcks, your replys, example: guard asks you to stop using shoats, you can on word answer yes, or you can disagree with a comment that reads like a ten year old talking about farts... its annoying i was hoping for exspansive dialogue, most of the time its ye yes yes yeh yeh yes ye yes yeh no yes yeah maybe-later yes no remain silent. not i urge you my yarl not to resist the storm cloaks advance think of the lives at stake on both sides, your own town is split with striff over the coming storm let the people have there say or somthing like that not hears an axe cool bye.... wahhhhh

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:15 pm

I like numbers, i would like numbers in my HP/magic and stamina bar. (include option in the game options etc).

Also tracking your companions HP etc stats is very bad atm, i would like a possibility to enable his/hers HP/magic/stamina to be shown on the left side of the screen (if i choose so) so i know when to heal my companion and when not. This would also make it possible to have more then one companion, and perhaps give them different tasks in a party group.

Melee (melee weapon)
Ranged (bow)
Area Magic offence caster (Area offence spells)
Direct damage Magic offence caster (direct damage offence spells)
Magic supportive caster (healer)(automatically seeks damaged party members and tries to heal them)
Ranged Stealth (tries to go out of combat(out of sight) and then uses bow)
Melee Stealth (tried to go out of combat(out of sight) and then uses daggers to backstab enemies)

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:35 am

So how is that any different?

2011 > 2002?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:42 pm

Remember when hearts and half/hearts were enough?

:wub:

Hearts and half/hearts was actually a very precise numerical system. I could tell you the precise numerical value of health that I had lost, had remaining, as a percentage and so forth.

On the other hand, estimating exactly where an enemy health bar is considering hundreds of possible "positions" is impossible.

Personally wouldn't play with the floating numbers, but would be a nice toggle feature for those who wanted it.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:29 am

I don't mind having abstractions like "double damage", but the prize goes to Necromage "All spells are more effective against undead." What does that mean? 5%? 50% is it worth it?

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:03 am

Yeah, you need to try it and see, and woe to you if you discover its crap and ask if there's a way to refund the perk.

The hardcoe mob will be on you like flies on .... ahem, anyway.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:42 pm

Who needs numbers when you have got real time weapon switching and massive critical damage...

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:49 am

I don't mind having abstractions like "double damage", but the prize goes to Necromage "All spells are more effective against undead." What does that mean? 5%? 50% is it worth it?

Exactly! Really silly, gives u no info, and w/out exact info u cant makle informed decisions (i mean for the skills / perks / items).

I liked vey much the simple 'Critical Strike' message from Arena. It could habe well been just a 1 pt damage x 3 (which means nothing) but I found it cool to see my Assassin scroing tons of these in a row.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:06 pm

Exactly! Really silly, gives u no info, and w/out exact info u cant makle informed decisions (i mean for the skills / perks / items).

I liked vey much the simple 'Critical Strike' message from Arena. It could habe well been just a 1 pt damage x 3 (which means nothing) but I found it cool to see my Assassin scroing tons of these in a row.

Wait what? How is that any different?

How do you know what this critical strike means? It can only be good, yes but how good? You don't even see the enemy's health in Arena, so you don't know how much relative damage you've done.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:43 am

A more detailed description of items, weapons, spell etc: YES
Comabt ready quick and visual guages from my attributes (they even only pop up when significant :celebration: ): YES
Numbers pouring out the butts of my enemies: NO

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:48 pm

Wrong kind of RPG. Theorycrafting and min-maxing in an Elderscrolls title is a sure way to ruining the game for yourself. If you're not playing Elder Scrolls game for the content... might need to look elsewhere.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:40 pm

This isn't dead island.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:32 pm

Wrong kind of RPG. Theorycrafting and min-maxing in an Elderscrolls title is a sure way to ruining the game for yourself. If you're not playing Elder Scrolls game for the content... might need to look elsewhere.

THIS

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:51 am

I don't care for number on things likes hits and hit points on the HUD. But I'd definitely like to see the number of charges in my my weapon remaining (rather than just the bar), and I'd really like the game to tell me what kind of soul I just captured with Soul Steal, rather than just telling me that I've captured a soul.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:00 pm

Console players can't read, that's why they don't have a PC. This game was designed for console players, ergo no numbers.

Also explains why everything in game is voiced and there's no details you need in journal, everything is an icon on the screen.

Which seems opposite, since people are always saying that the whole "Look! Damage numbers when you hit people!" is a "silly console thing" and ruins their serious PC RPG.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:28 pm

Theorycrafting and min-maxing in an Elderscrolls title is a sure way to ruining the game for yourself.

Speak for yourself, I like knowing as much as possible about a game, it adds depth and takes nothing away from the experience for me.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:03 am

Use your silver sword on a guy... do little damage... throw it away.. it didn't reduce his percent enough...

Oops.. try that on a vampire... OMG his percent dropped a lot...

Wait, is that because he is alergic to silver, or just didn't have much health? (Can't tell with a percent of life if you don't know the WHOLE NUMBER, percents are useless.)

EG... Potion heals 25... What is that? Before it was 25% of my life, and was a lot.. now it is like 2% of my life... because I have more life. Then show the damn percent, not 25-points, say "2% of YOUR life"

However, that won't work on poison... since you don't know the creatures life... Should I waste a 25-point poison, or would 150-point poision be overkill? Can't tell, he only has a percent for life.

How hard is it to just put a damn number over the bar, or on the side, or make it an option.

Otherwise I agree... Why waste time saying 20-points of ____, and then not have anything to relate that to in the game, except to see that this item is better than that item. (Which actually helps, since the naming convention of leveled items svcks. Potion names being the most irrelevant names related to power.)

Here is a neat idea, for the number-guys, like myself... Use a LINE at 10 pts, 20 pts, 30 pts... on health... or by 20's or 25's... something to indicate VOLUME, not just PERCENT.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:06 pm

I totally agree. Even more, I want to know my stats. My crit chance, damage range, damage reduction from armor, and such.

I know not everybody needs this, but:

1.There are lots of players who do
2. It doesn't harm the players who don't care about stats.
3. The numbers are already there, we just need to be able to see them

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:00 am

Wait what? How is that any different?

How do you know what this critical strike means? It can only be good, yes but how good? You don't even see the enemy's health in Arena, so you don't know how much relative damage you've done.

I meant I found the message indicating successful CS cool , not that it informed me anything. TES have always been bad at informing this sort of thing (Oblivion was good though).

EDIT: totally agree w/ kalarro.