Yeah, but for positively I was talking about the level system without attributes and classes.

Well, that I don't really have many concerns for. I'd imagine some of the other long-time fans of this series are peeved about it, but I honestly don't care whether or not the game has attributes as well as the skills and perks are developed properly (there's a few things about that kind of approach that definitely appeal to me, like the fact that it almost necessarily demands greater character specialization, that it removes a pretty clear avenue for exploitation, and that it gives them more freedom to develop the skills without worrying about the attributes that those skills rely on) and the lack of classes is something they probably should have done some time ago (mainly because... well, the classes in this series have always been a little meaningless and served more as labels for preset collections of main skills and attributes than as anything especially worth keeping).

There's certainly room for them to drop the ball and it's definitely not a good change from a more conservative standpoint (given that it means shifting to a character system that's entirely different from what they've been using since Daggerfall, rather than more iterative or evolutionary changes like they'd done with Morrowind or Oblivion), but it's not a decision that bothers me in the slightest.

Seriously?!?! :sadvaultboy:

EPIC FAIL!

Removing attributes except for stamina, magic and health IS dumbing down:-

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Attributes

^ I agree. I don't see how perks can compensate, as (from what I understand) you can only choose one perk every level.

They will compensate by giving more breadth to each skill.

This and I cant even see how perks would work in a ES game!

^^wait, is it one perk per level in each skill, or one perk per character level? Or does your character not even have an overall level?

One per character level.

k, it is as I feared then

I'll admit, it bugged me at first.
At first I was all "but that is surely a step down!!!"

But after time and rational thought, I'm okay with it. Kudos on your post OP :thumbsup:

Not seeing why this is a problem. They've also confirmed that leveling is going to be quite a bit easier and faster during the low levels so that it's going to be easy to rapidly accumulate a number of perks early on, and if you specialize your character you'll level faster even after the level progression starts to slow down. Nothing about that really sounds bad to me.

These people need to stop crying about the new system. It is like a baby crying because of new blankets. As Chris Christie said, "If you don't like it, then you don't have to do it". Except instead of doing, it is playing.

Are you suggesting that characters will be able to achieve much higher levels (compared to Oblivion) and therefore accumulate large numbers of perks?

I think people are confusing dubming down with streamlining.

In my opinion it's not the number of skills that matters, but the usefullness/uselessness each one may have.

Combined with the perks we might see some very deep specialization. If you have all associated perks dedicated to the use of a battleaxe, you still won't be any good at using a dagger.

^^ Usually they're the same

That's not really fair. Fans of this series have been waiting for a long time for this game to be released, and if there are features that outright ruin their ability to enjoy the game then that waiting becomes pointless and they're left with no alternative (since, for better or for worse, nobody really makes this sort of game except Bethesda).

EDIT:
Not really, no. Steamlining's a term that's often used for most anything that makes a game easier and smoother to play or interact with, whether that means removing things, changing things, tweaking things, or outright replacing things. It doesn't mean an inherent and total loss.

Dumbing down, on the other hand, is mainly a term people use to describe changes they don't like when they have no specific criticism to bring to the table.

I have been a fan since 2003. And instead of thinking about it in the context of previous ES games, how about you consider these changes as something that will make Skyrim a new beast? We won't know for sure until we play it. For all we know, the perk system could be a major gaming turning-point.

It was gameplay that needed to be streamlined, not the skillset. Yeah, streamlining the skillset is good to get our feet wet with yet another new gameplay system, but we shouldn't keep using arm floaties if we already know how to swim. But then again this is more for after this game than anything else.

Expansion >>> Regression

I mean when game developers claim they are streamlining, from my experience I've found that they are actually dumbing [censored] down. Obviously we can all differentiate the two words

That may sound all well and good...but answer me this...

Is Strength and Stamina the same? Why should it be? A strong person isn't neccessarily as fast a runner as somebody who is weak in their upper body. So doesn't it seem dumbed down to you?

I actually really like the decision to whittle the skills number to 18 and the implications this has on gameplay. The inclusion of perks should force the player to have a more focused gameplay experience...it should become more difficult to become incredibly powerful in EVERY SINGLE skill, assuming the perks significantly change the usage and effectiveness of various skills. I realize that many players like the option to become the greatest warrior, mage, and thief of all time simultaneously, but I find it to be unrealistic, and frankly, it lessens the ability of a player to replay the game with vastly different experiences every time. However, NOW, you might be forced to choose whether you want to balance your proficiency in all three character-types to a decent degree or (for example) decide that you are willing to forego some training in the arcane arts to advance further in the ways of the warrior. If the player can be given multiple choices for quests and game outcomes based on their native strengths, I believe that this smaller skill set in conjuction with perks could make for a better and more varied experience than Morrowind or Oblivion.

1 to 50 according to the Game Informer (soft cap, depends on skills used and starting values). The article claim that Oblivion was 1 to 25, but that's not true, the "difficulty" kind of capped at 25 (Daedric at level 20 doh), but 50ish was the real cap.

One line in the article leads me to believe that, besides the removal of mysticism, it sounds like weapon skills have been consolidated into [one-handed weapons] and [two-handed weapons].