Having recently finished Daggerfall for the first time, I noticed that all the hint guides say that the Mantella Crux is located in Aetherius. I also noticed a dearth of in-game evidence for this assertion. Do you guys know where the notion that the Mantella Crux is located in Aetherius comes from?

You retrieve it from there in Daggerfall. Aetherius back then was a dungeon with a lot of mouldering stone walls floating in space.

Well it says here that it is reputably located in Aetherius. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mantellan_Crux#Mantellan_Crux

Yes, I've seen the tertiary sources (fan speculation) indicating that the Mantella Crux is located in Aetherius. I have not seen any reference to primary (in-game dialog or letters) or secondary (in-game books) sources. I was wondering if anyone here knew what lay behind that conclusion.

EDIT: I found what I was looking for, over at http://www.imperial-library.info/tsod/numidium.shtml. I didn't see it when I was actually playing the game due to a glitch.


Now, it is highly unlikely there is any consciously intended connection between the visual depiction of Aetherius in Daggerfall, and the nightmare realm as depicted in Varenima's quest in Oblivion. HOWEVER, when one considers that Aetherius is considered by some to be the destination of the honored departed dead, the name SVONGARDE which was given to a destination for the honored departed by certain nords in Bloodmoon, the word DREAMSLEAVE which it has been suggested is related in meaning, then we have not only a connection between Aetherius and dreams in terms of visual depiction, we also have a potential linguistic connection. Interesting.

Could you clarify how you go from Aetherius in Daggerfall to Vearnima's quest in Oblivion?

Sovngarde, being the Dreamsleeve suggests that the idea of Aetherius as an afterlife is nothing but a fanciful Imperial misnomer. So the Mantella was either located in Aetherius, or in the Dreamsleeve.

Now I'm not sure I like the idea of the Mantellan crux being located in the dreamsleeve, as it isn't a place for anything physical but the alternative is even less plausible. So a spirit journey perhaps? Nulfaga was a powerful mystic after all.

Visual similarity, and nothing more. In both settings (as well as the dream quest in Bravil, now that I think about it) you travel along clumps of earth suspended in starry blackness. Mind you, I've seen this in other games as well; it's pretty common. But I was still struck by the resemblance upon entering the Crux for the first time ever.



Well, I'm not saying Aetherius or the Mantella Crux is "in" the dreamsleave, but merely pointing out a probable connection between Aetherius, dreaming, and possibly the fate of the spirits of the dead. To speculate further:

Unless I'm mistaken, it is known that Nirn is suspended in Oblivion, remote from the border between Oblivion and Aetherius, the Gray Maybe. What if, when people dream, their consciousness is actually transported to the Gray Maybe? To reach Aetherius by the direct route, one would have to pass through first Oblivion, then the Gray Maybe, before finally reaching Aetherius proper. Thus:

1. Nulfaga transports the Hero to the Mantella Crux, by which he can reach and acquire the Mantella. But perhaps she can only get him as far as a particular structure in the Gray Maybe, and the Mantella Crux is the process of walking that final mile to the very edge of Aetherius, where the Mantella lodged itself all those years ago.

2. Oblivion features two quests which send the Hero to a very visually similar place, either by sleeping (as in Bravil) or passing through some kind of interplanear portal (as in Vaernima's quest): dream domain. Given both the nordic legend of SVONGARDE, and the popular theory that the spirit of the dead passes through something called the DREAMSLEAVE before reaching their final destination (reincarnation?), the idea that the place where the spirits of the dead go, the place where the mind goes while dreaming (and where Vaernima plays her own game), and Aetherius are in roughly the same neighborhood doesn't seem that far fetched.

In other words, the visual similarity may not be entirely coincidental, which is what I was going for in the first place.

1. That would make it seem terribly easy, considering travelling to Aetherius is supposed to be difficult and costly.

2. My rub with the dream mission from Bravil is that isn't explained much or tied in with lore at all. Though I get the impression you're inside that guys mind, that's where he has to overcome his challenges. Not very profound. (cough).

With Vearnima's quest it seems you wandered into her realm, that of nightmares. That's why it looks like one even though you're awake. It's the stone that allowed Arkeved to open a portal of sorts to get there while sleeping. The result being that he's now stuck there. Something like that.

It's my impression that Mundus is rather self contained. Arkay found purpose in mortality, allowing him to become the god of the cycle of live and death. Mankar holds the same spiel about the Dreamsleeve, and is suggesting that we should tear ourselves loose from Mundus (Mother) and join Mehrunes Dagon. So I image the same applies to dreams.

3. Gonna have to think about it before I make up my mind.

Well, the hard part is getting to Aetherius in a "physical" sense, in a fashion that enables one to carry something back with him. Clearly Nulfaga knew the trick of it, having sent the Hero there to get the Mantella. But the difficulty would be the reason the Ayleids cut deals with the Princes of Oblivion to harvest cast-off pieces of creatia, rather than going right to the source.

But when one dreams, he isn't "going there" in the same sense.

I couldn't help but notice your allusion to "Arkay the God." It pleases me, as I accept the truth of this volume in at least a metaphorical sense; but it also surprised me, since I was under the impression folks around here regard that volume as discredited, a cast-off piece of an overwritten and irrelevant past.

Actually, I believe Proweler to be making reference to the entries to Arkay and Tu'whacca, as found in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml. These suggest that before the creation of Nirn, he served no purpose, being a god of life and death in a universe without mortals. Reading carefully, he made no mention of Arkay the God.

Okay, this is going to sound really strange. I had a dream, just the other night, and that is EXACTLY the kind of place it was in AND it was from the perspective of me playing Morrowind, ie, all the characters in the dream were NPCs, it had the same "graphics" so to speak, it wasn't dreaming of a real place, but a computer game.

I've also never played Daggerfall or heard a description of the Aetherius, although I have heard the name and know it is similar to an Oblivion realm.

It was a cool dream. I basically would go from platform to platform either by jumping between them or doors in the ruins that acted like teleporters. It was populated with mostly daedra (Dremoras specifically) and I seem to recall there was rather good loot in chests or on enemies.

I'm really not so surprised that I dreamed of such a place, in the theme of the Eldrscrolls (I've had dreams of playing before) or even that it matched a description of place that has written of in the games lore. More so I am surprised that I had the dream, and then read the post describing it within 2 days.

Both "Ar'Kay the God" and Thu'Whacca tell the same story. That of a man, or god finding purpose in his own death at the creation of the Mortal plane. It's this purpose that made him immortal again and allowed him to survive. The "Lies from a past age" as Nu'Hatta refers to Arkay was in reference to his presumed mantling. Which indeed never (no longer?) happened.