An addition to this point is how I felt about Fallout 3. I actually quit FO3 part of the way through the tutorial the first time, it was just irritating. But when I got outside fore the first time and saw the barren wasteland, that is when I began to care.

I told you your're not allowed to mention the cut screen at the beginning that's not what is topic is about.

You aren't allowed to mention the save solution to Oblivions opening. Were talking about how long Skyrims opening should be. I'm getting sick of saying this.

Having to pick stats again? You do know that you can save everytime you want, don't you?

Flunky, good luck with your mission on irradicating the ESC/cutsceen and Sewer Save comments. You might be fighting a losing battle there. :foodndrink:

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT OBLIVION! IT'S OPENING SEQUENCE IS NOT THE MAIN ISSUE! WE ARE DISCUSSING HOW LONG THE OPENING OF SKYRIM SHOULD BE! I GAVE THE OPENING OF OBLIVION AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I DON'T WANT, AND THEN I ASKED FOR YOUR GUYS OPINIONS! This is everyone's last warning, the next person to assume I'm an complete idiot and mentions anything that has nothing to do with the topic is going to get reported for spam or trolling. This is at least the eightieth time I've said this. Give your opinion on how long you think (or want) the opening of Skyrim to be, based on the games Bethesda has already done or shut up!

I definitely think I am. The only thing that I did to mislead people was the title of the topic. It should say something like "How long should of the opening of Skyrim be?" I wish I could change it, but honestly once people get in here and start reading the posts they should realize what the topic is really about. Especially when they see the other forty-two million posts about the saves and the cutsceen.

What's wrong with a long intro dungeon? You already know what is going to happen and where to go, so it only took a few minutes to go through it again. I found it engaging enough each subsequent time I played it and it definitely wasn't drawn out. It was pretty fast paced imo.

I hope Skyrim's intro is a similar fashion as Oblivion's.

Finally, someone actually expressing their opinion! Thank the gods!

Fallout: New Vegas did a good job by only forcing you to go through chargen. After that you had a quest for your tutorial.

I always thought what Morrowind's opening did do right, and got good reviews for, is that it was so open. Not the short length, but the fact that it really didn't tell you why you were there and just pushed you into the world allowing you to do litterally what ever you wanted to do. I think Morrowind really did nail that. However, I think it could still be better. Oblivion got me to care about the plot and the world I was being involved with, but it was written in such a way that it didn't make sense for the player to not start with the main quest. You didn't have to do the main quest...but the way it was worded and how it told the character what to do next kinda made it feel like you had to do it.


It was a good attempt to get the player to care about the plot, but the tail end was handled poorly in my opinion. A big reason people didn't like Oblivion's main quest was that it was rush rush rush and always forced at the player. It was a linear story in an open world, that was the big problem there. A better way would have been having the player not know where Jaufre is upon leaving with the amulet, and its his job to find him only knowing he's an old blade and that only old Blade members would know where he is. The only people with any info on Jaufre's location would be the people at Weinnon priory, but if the player never goes to check that place out, after about two ingame weeks a rumor is entered into your log that the Blades are holding a meeting at the priory. Even if you don't go to meet Jaufre at the meeting, the quest log would hold info saying those at Weinnon Priory may have info about him.

That's how I would have written the plot for Obivion. It could leave the feeling that you have no idea which way to go to find this guy, so you might as well start doing other stuff hoping you might happen upon him or someone who knows him.


The killing of goblins did go on to long, and there was no variety to the opening. That was the main problem Oblivion's opening had. Now that we dont' need so much killing for an npc to then take a guess at what class we are, since classes are no more. With no need for so much fighting, Skyrim's opening is pretty much shorter by default.

Fallout 3's intro was long...but there were so many different ways to do things that I enjoyed playing it many times. I think the best option is just that, to add more variety to the opening. It wont feel long if you have a fun time exploring different paths each time you play it. Oblivion's felt long because no matter if you were good, evil, a swordsman, a mace lover, or a magic flinger...it all played the same till you got outside. Once you got outside thats when things branched off and started to feel different. Oblivion you had to follow a set path no matter who you were, and that's not good for an open world game.

I think that's why many people like Morrowind's opening, it didn't feel as if you were being forced down a set path, because that set path lead from a boat to a building, and then out the building and you were more or less done. In my mind, an opening in an open world game can be long and amazing, and get the player's mouth to open in amazement, while also allowoing for different paths to be followed so its interesting, and more form fit to each different character you make. That's the kind of opening I want to see.


B...but I...


I think out of all the games from Morrowind to NV, I think NV's opening was the worst. The first look you got at the world was of a boring ghost town with mountains blocking your view on the other side of the town. You couldn't really see how amazing the world looked till you went to visit your grave up ontop of the hill. The doc's house should have been on that hill, and the door should have been facing Vegas.

And as for the skippable tutorial, it seemed all rather pointless. It helps the new players of course and it did a good job with that, but there should also be a want to do the tutorial on the second or third playthrough. It should be fun to play, with different ways to play it along with different outcomes based on how you play. It felt less like a quest, and more like something slapped on at the last second to help new players. They should have put more time into it to give it a more unique feel.

I guess I feel that the character creation part and the tutorial part can be seperate. You don't need a tutorial to take you thru the same area (although I like your idea of multiple paths) to tell you," you found a bow, equip it." "you found arrows, equip them." "see that bucket over there? Shoot an arrow at it" I think the opening can be shorter like MW where you create your character, what he/she looks like, race, background story (if you can actually make one, not just in your head) and you are given a shove in the right direction. Then when you are released the opening area can be used as a tutorial. Using MW again, Seyda Neen could have been your tutorial. If you wanted to help that nord get his money (or whatever it was) from the wood elf just outside the office (you know, the one whose ring you find in the barrel) you wait till night and watch the elf. You go to the stump, but have to sneak (tip comes up as you approach the stump) so no one sees you loot the stump. You get some money by selling the stuff you took from the excise office and if you buy a bow a tip comes up telling you you need to equip arrows to use it. You buy/find/steal arrows, equip them and take out a mudcrab or two. OB used tips like when you picked up the Mortar & Pestle. The same can be done just in the opening area to help those new to the game instead of forcing you down a linear path that is too long.

If you are a more experienced player (or are on character number 40 or 50 and still never completed the game, like me) you can turn the tips off in the options menu and do whatever you want. Do the quests in the opening area or just move on.

It all depends on how Bethesda decides to handle getting you on the right path for the main quest. Do they use MW's "here's a package, now go" and you are on your own in a mysterious land or OB's "The emperor is dead. You must hurry and find his son or the empire will parish" to get you into the storyline. If you are taken out of a cell to be executed and as your head is on the chopping block a dragon attacks you might run and grab a sword or bow from a fallen guard and help in the fight (tips help you understand the combat system) or you aquire a spell from a Skryim Mage during the attack and help. Or you could just run away and make a clean getaway, but a journal entry helps lead you into the main quest when you decide to start it. You can say, "svcks to be them" and do whatever you want or use the journal entry to get started in saving the world from dragons and learning about your dragonborn abilities.

That's kinda what I would like to see right there. The tutorial quest would be an actual quest that's fun like the others to do, and feels more than something just slapped on to help new players. You could run, but there's an actual reason to stay and fight. Dragon's man! What kinda intro tutorial quest has you fight dragon's right off the bat? One that's fun to play along with being educational. The hero could pick up a sword, and even if you know what you're doing there's a dragon infront of you. Sure these people were going to kill you, but you can't just leave them to die via dragon...that's just not who you are. The theif could make use of the dragons to sneak into the barracks or leader's living quarters to steal some moderatly high value goods. The mage who doesn't care one way or another can just leave, hey, these people were going to kill him. Sounds fair.

Lots of side things going on as well. Maybe while getting ready to fight you run into a traiter who used the distraction to kill another man in the guard because he was jealous of the relationship he had with another woman in the guard. A young fresh guard who's hiding in a corner, who you can talk up and give the courage to fight for his honor and family. Later on you could even meet up with the guy again if you help him, and he could have his own little quest ark.

In NV, the tutorial was a boring waste of time taking pot shots at some overgrown salamanders who can't even breath fire. One extremely overgrown lizard which can both breath a lot of fire and fly around as your first enemy would make the quest for new players an actual fun one. The best way to learn something is to be having fun while ya do it. Just because its a tutorial with a lot of pop ups doesn't mean it has to be boring or irrelivant like NV.

A secondary quest that starts later into the game where you come into contact with surviving guards from the dragon attack would also add some relevence to the story. In a world where our choices should have an impact, having a quest that is completely removed and holds no weight or relevence to it stands out. It shouldn't be a quest that just new players have to do...it should be a quest that everyone wants to do...not because it just shows people how to do things, because its fun and interesting to play through with different characters. Sure, I have nothing against the option to skip it. But later characters shouldn't just skip it because its boring. It shouldn't be boring in the first place. Even if its kinda long, it should be fun to play. There should be a reason for you play the intro almost every time, because if the quest is boring the people writing the quests did something wrong.

Oblivion's tutorial wasn't boring because it wasn't fun, but because it was repetitive. I was the same every time. You gave some good examples on how to make it fun, but the more you start more characters the faster it's going to get boring, even if was fun to began with. That's why having an option to skip it is vital. Also IMO there won't be dragons right at the beginning. In a podcast Todd said the first time you kill a dragon you get called by the gray beards, which starts the MQ. It's also a boss type battle, a new character wouldn't last of a second against one. Still there are plenty of ways to make the beginning fun, and I think Bethesda has learned there lesson, so most likely they will make the tutorial skippble.

Well, at any rate, I'm not against the idea of being able to skip. Its just, it should be made in such a way that you may not want to. It should be like any other quest, in that you can skip it, but the character you're playing as may not want to skip it. Like, instead of dragons, it was a battle in the Civil war that's going on. Interactions with either side, you caught in the middle. Maybe you could help either side, gaining popularity with whom every you help while losing a little with the other. Maybe your character doesn't care so you can just get the hell out of dodge, but maybe you're a character who wants to kill the people who were about to kill you...or your a character who wants to just try and stop the fighting somehow.

A tutorial can be optional...sure, but it shouldn't be bare bones explanations of things like NV just because its optional, it should play a part in the world like every other quest. The story! The story, think about how it can play into the story! A bare bones explanation is boring, and leaves your mouth feeling stail and just bleh. If there was some meat to the tutorial...sure you could run through it and not dig into it, but its meat! There should be substance to the quests in Skyrim, all of em. Jut just the manditory ones in the main quests for factions and the main quest.

Can ya tell I want to be a writer yet? Anyway, to sum up I'm not against an option to skip. But that option to skip shouldn't turn the tutorial into some boring pile of bleh that the devs threw up so that new players can learn how to do things. The writers should take the oportunity to do something unique and interesting!

Jeeze this is a long drawn out thread. i feel like it's been active forever but it only has 6 pages.

Sorry if i posted before, but a semi-long tutorial with an option skip it would be best.

Oblivion's was just way too long after repeated play through, and it restrict role playing somewhat, with you being thrown straight to the main plot with the amulet being handed to you and all. At least in Morrowind it was noted that you're just yet another nobody among a series of unlucky prisoners before you which being sent by the emperor to use the prophecy as an Imperial propaganda and such, so your character can just ignore it and pretend that they never had anything to do with the whole ordeal. You (and your character) only grow to care, and becoming much more involved naturally with the main plot as you goes only if you (the player) wish to, so to speak. But a short dungeon crawling tutorial was a good idea in itself, but just not that drawn out, please.

1. Thorough "Previously, on TES" cutscene, where you get an introduction to the world itself. Skippable.
2. Short introduction to the Skyrim game, also via cutscene. Skippable.
3. Tutorial either as Oblivion or FONV, or a mix.

Man, "Previously, on TES" could fill a movie. Where's Peter Jackson?

I wonder though. Since they've said they took out classes because they want you to "be what you play" why put you thru "toggle crouch. See that eye icon, that means your sneaking. Sneak up on the goblin and kill it" "here's a mortar & pestle. make some potions" "here's a bow. Shoot the bucket" "go into your spell list and select Flare. Now cast a spell at your enemy"

I think, even if they do some sort of opening quest, they could maybe use realtime tool tips ("you have a bow. you need to equip arrows to use it") to give new players help. But why ask them to play possibly how they don't want to play just to show them how? Give them the info, as needed, but let the player play how they want. Sure, you will probably say "you don't actually have to sneak up on that goblin. You could just run up and kill it if you want to play a warrior" But again, the idea of the tutorial isn't for veteran TES players, but for new players, so they will probably follow what the tutorial tells them so they don't miss something.

I was way more in awe of Morrowind's beginning, being thrown into a huge world with not much to go on was overwhelming in a good way. Oblivion's beginning was so full of itself that I found it hard to take seriously...

Also really dug the feeling of being alone and having to become strong enough to take on this unseen evil that was affecting the entire island in ways that became more obvious as the story progressed and I became more notorious. In Oblivion, 10 seconds in I get to meet the king...

I don't mind the long prologue.

I prefer a short beginning in open world games because I want each character to feel as different as possible. In morrowind it was awesome because you were just set off and felt completely lost in this new expansive world (which is a GOOD thing). In OB on the other hand all your characters had the same origins because you pretty much got your bagground spoonfed, not to mention it was a [censored] pain doing it the 5th time(because I wasn't smart enough to do a save at the sewer exit). In linear games like half life though, I like a long beginning to set the mood of the world because the action begins, because you don't have to option to just stop and walk around freely in those games. In TES games tho, I can at any time chillax in a city and take in the gameworld if I want to

I like the opening in Oblivion. A good story, which TES games normally have, should start with a very good opening. The opening in Oblivion was great. Not only did it tell you the backstory, but it also gave you a chance to familiarize yourself with the game and the mechanics and GUI without putting you head first into the game cold with no idea of how things work.

I would like to see one as long as Oblivion's, or close it.

Definitely the short opening like Morrowind. What was beautiful about it was it was completely light-spirited and non-indicative of what was to come. And that perfectly helped in slowly building up the gravity of the main quest as you progressed though it. Compare it with the beginning in Oblivion, which threw you straight into the action and chaos of the story from the get go. Now i did love the opening in Oblivion, but the beginning in Morrowind set off a slow burn, a gradual change in emotion and atmosphere throughout the game, rather than the same constant 'impending doom' fealing of Oblivion' story. Morrowind's opening also left you kind of lost in this big new world with a real sense of, 'Now i'm free from jail, I'm gonna start my adventure any way i please'. No inhibitations, nothing to take priority over how you wanted to start your travells. Your orders to go to balmora seemed only secondary because you had no real urgent reason to do so, no 'dead emperor's dying wishes' to fulfill.

I would prefer a short opening in the Morrowind style. I feel that fits better with an open world game where the main quest is optional, in Oblivion I felt the opening sequence was funneling me into doing the main quest right away as it set the story and that was always in the back of my mind while I was exploring. I'd rather just be plonked into the world having been given directions to the NPC who I need to see in order to start the main quest (deliver the package as in Morrowind worked well for this) rather than having the game start with action that makes me feel a sense of urgency about it.