I was playing oblivion last night and I heard a high elf speaking about lore. He said something to the effect of Lord Jiub (Dunmer from boat, beggining of Morrowind) had gone missing, but he had previously ran the Cliff Racers from Vvardenfell. All I could say was WTF!? I take it this is true and sticks with lore, what you guys think?

I think the Temple must be in unspeakably wretched condition if they're going around sainting Jiubs left and right.

Who knows. It's not exactly something that speaks for itself, like the destruction of Ald-Ruhn. And Tedders didn't do an RP about it.

It's an inside joke for Morrowind players. Actually, given the only people who even remember the guy's name are probably forumites, it's an inside joke for US. [/captainobvious]

That sounds like something Jiub would do, his mother and I go way back.

....Although its hard to how Jiub would do such an accomplishment; those thing are everywhere!

This sounds like an Irish saint that drove off all the snakes from Ireland. St. Patrick, I believe. Could be wrong; it's been 8 years since I was in Ireland.

same one who began the process of deleting the Gaelic and Celtic from the Green Isle - I suspect that the snakes are druidic symbols ...

I've always taken it into truth. But you never know.

The Jiub thing just another one of the unconfirmed Oblivion rumors, isnt it? I never took it as truth as I have never seen any tengible proof. :shrug:
Destruction of Ald-Ruhn is another story though, as it had some sort of http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=607899&hl= to it. If MK says its so, Vivec makes it so. So it must be true for Nirn.

I wonder where the cliffracers went?... To the mainland, lol? Or maybe they went to Cyrodiil! PHEW!!! What if they're going to where the next game takes place in?

Same old Manuel - an in-game statement IS LORE ...

The MK christmas pressy might just be for fun, or a dream or fact - hard to say that unless you ask him and Tod if it is Lore.

Titanic artwork of the crab!

A lot of people responding in that MK Christmas thread seemed to have forgotten the many great Redoran cities on the Mainland, which is far more extensive than Vvardenfell. The transfer of the administrative and titular base from the mainland to AldRuhn was quite recent so given that and the comparitively small size of the city and the barren land the population shift would have been minimal. That puts the talk I have seen about 'the fall of Redoran' into the category of fan-chat - it was AldRuhn that fell and should be remembered by the Redorans who survived. Remember Redoran = if you are Redoran you should never forget this attack and destruction of your capital, AldRuhn as was. Time to rebuild.

Vivec's absence is more than merely interesting - it poses questions as he was free to attend the 'Trial' apparently.

Also, as the backbone of Dunmer military, Redoran would likely have had a great many more members at the Ghost Gate when the surprise attack came to AldRuhn. So far as we know the whole of Vvardenfell and Morrowind was not overrun so the real military units at the now pointless Ghost Gate = the Buoyant Armigers and Ordinators - likely decimated the Daedra and trashed their sorry siege machine.

The way I see it is that the Redoran would have fought as long as there was something to save and then retreated - there is no mention of total massacre of the defending forces - only the destruction of the City - and the City was more an administrative than a military center = more about prestige than size.

That would hurt Redorans, but the guy who transferred the seat of power to Vvardenfell and failed miserably re Caldera was likely defeated by the Nerevarine so what did that make Ald'Ruhn? The dream of a has-been?


Saint Jiub - that what the modders call him. As far as they are concerned he is the best of the best! Just try telling them that he is a fiction - and not a saint. There is a wonderful fan-fic about the life and times of Saint Jiub floating about somewheres

Yeah, didn't you know that Irish is the tongue of serpents?

There never were snakes on Ireland anyway, they simply didn't cross the land bridge in time.

Nah - they came over alright - because they heard the Guiness was great. Sadly for the tourist industry the Irish were a bit slow on the uptake and hadn't invented it yet so the snakes all went home.

The moral of the story being that rumours travel faster than technology advances.

Well, yers - but I blames them lepricorns :nods:

Oh, dearie me - it's just a little joke. Nothing more. *sigh*

(Then again, I wholly reject the Trial of Vivec, though I understand it is at least 'fanon' to many of you. If it's not in the game, it's pure conjecture, regardless of the source. The Vivec I met in the game was not wholly trustworthy but he was not a villain. I liked him a lot. He wore heavily the knowledge of his past and was ready to die, conceding it almost as a relief, though I saw no purpose for killing him so we parted friends. He could have attacked me at any time but chose instead to aid and encourage me. When I killed his former lover, he offered sympathy instead of recrimination. His motive for betraying Nerevar was clear and obvious; for him to plot to attack Azura is completely out of character. It would be like Brutus turning on Cleopatra after killing Caesar. Anyway, my intention is not to derail this into a Trial of Vivec thread but to point out why even seemingly legitimate sources of information can be rejected if they do not correlate with what we know already. The Lord Jiub thing is in the game, but also isn't really Lore as such. It's more of an Easter Egg.)


I think that the logical thing that would happen after the defeat of Dagoth Ur is that people would start to build within the Ghostfence. I mean, think about it - a huge area of the landmass of the whole island has been off-limits and there is obviously a requirement for more land since the houses have been imposing restrictions on the building of strongholds. There would be an immediate grab for land on Red Mountain - specifically, the rights to the mines within. This would then put into context a sudden rising in the strategic importance of Ald'ruhn - the city closest to the Ghostgate. As has been said, it would be administrative rather than military.


Please can we halt this line of discussion? I don't want to lock this thread for country-bashing or politics. Thank you.

:stare:

That I would wholly agree with concerning Vivec, but, lore validity aside, it's nice to imagine the Juib part



I would think that it would apply to the Ghostgate more. While not a city it was a fully functioning settlement and was, offically at least, house neutral as, if I recall correctly, the Temple owned it but Redoran simply ran some businesses out of a part of it and aided them.



Sorry, thought I'd get away with bashing my own country

Obviously the Nerevarine entrusted Kagrenac's tools to Jiub and he started fiddling around with the heart of Lorkhan and ended up wiping out all the cliffracers. Further meddling made himself disappear too.


Edit: the Nerevarine not Nerevar. That'd just be crazy.

I don\'t understand how you can post that and not realize how blatantly presumptuous it is. Vivec is a character in a work of fiction, created by a group of authors. (Primarily but not solely MK) Vivec\'s actions in the Trial were not the result of fans having fun in an inherently chaotic RP, they were pre-meditated. A few of the devs talked about how Vivec, who is essentially the great rascal made divine, would act if freed from his responsibilities. Then a few of the authors who created Vivec participated in the RP, and the rest is history. And you \"reject\" it? How is this different from pretending that the epilogue of the Dark Tower series was never written? You can ignore it, but I don\'t see anyone arguing with King about why his character did not in fact, do X, Y, or Z.

I don\'t pretend that the trial is a lore document. What I do see it as is the written intent and creative vision of the writer and his work. Personally, I read the Trial and thought that it suited Vivec\'s character perfectly, which means that you and I have different understandings of him. This should not be surprising given that Vivec is a deity of pure contradiction. Everything about him is true one minute and false the next. So I hope you won\'t mind if I tell you that I nearly laughed your assessment of why nice Mr. Vivec is too considerate and logical to take revenge on the being who caused the slaughter of his siblings.

By the way, I don\'t mean for this post to be about the Trial\'s out of game statues (that\'s a cacafuego for another time) but about your judgment of it as somehow contradictory or false because it doesn\'t fit into your interpretation of the story.


You realize that Vvardenfell is the way it is because of Red Mountain, not Ur, right? The Ashlands are going to be blasted wastelands until the end of time and Red Mountain is the very worst of it. There will be a scramble for the ebony, glass, and dwemer artifacts, though.

Territory itself is important, is it not? Particularly something central. Before it was inaccesible, now it isn't. Plus it is adjecent to the two that seem to squable over territory, particularly that containing resources.

That's true, unless Princess Stomper was responding directly to 1999's post- 'population shift' caught my eye. The kind of building you see going on in the Ashlands is mostly fighting over strongholds, securing remote pilgrimage sites, and mining.

Given certain developer's penchant for allowing the actions of heroes and gods to dramatically alter the land, it could be that the Red Mountain was as active as it was because of UR's influence. Perhaps, with that mythic influence gone, Dagoth Ur will quiet down a bit... enough to where people can actually live in those mountains. It won't go dead, but perhaps it'll be less like Red Mountain, and more like the active volcanoes on other volcanic islands that some people build their lives next to. The Dwemer certainly created extensive settlements on Red Mountain.

Don't use that god-aweful word as a blanket term for validating rumors. They aren't always true, TES is supposed to bare witness of false testimonies and half truths.

:lol: - ok - I have had it shot at me and hated that - try that the rumour in question is a loreful rumour

I find myself agreeing with both paw-prints and the princess - because on the one hand I too chose to view Vivec as showing his genuine thinking re his intentions and assessments in the documents and conversations we had. But I also acknowledge that Vivec is indeed a rogue and has to be seen as such also.

Where I branch out on my own is that I only came to partially accept The Trial because a lot of fans and modders argued so passionately for it and some of their point of view came through. Therefore I am left with the position that something like the Trial was and is needed to bring balance and closure to those episodic Morrowindy tales - but having met Vivec, whatever the Dev's intended, The Trial rings false to me - so I see it as an imposture. Maybe only Sheogorrath was there for example?


re this observation I have been thinking that the disappearance of the Heart would in and of itself remove a lot of the stimulation that was keeping the ash spewing out.

Given that the Heart is a great power-source and reputedly from a highly active being I felt that it's mere presence was causing the Volcano to remain active for so long.

I don't see Dagoth Ur as the fundamental cause of the outpourings though he was clearly contaminating them. But he might well have been experimenting ready for the day.

Ref the Emperor's fears and Vivec's info it is clear Dagoth Ur planned to cause great eruptions in order to spread the blight all accross Tamriel and Nirn itself once he had Morrowind firmly in his grasp.

So when I freed the Heart and saw the clear blue skies I took that as a sign of things to come and decided that a lot of the Ashlands might become highly fertile because Volcanic lands contain masses of minerals and produce tremendously rich soil once living things get to work on them - see the vinyards that perch on the slopes of volcanoes. That process happens very fast.

So, the Redoran mines and other properties in the area would set Redoran in good stead for the princesse's land-grab - and the weakened state of the Imperials would make it very hard for them to interfere - especially in the wake of the great victory by the Armigers and Ordinators at the Ghost Gate!!! The Redoran Armigers and Ordinators who Remember Ald'Ruhn and will come back in full force at any house that even looks askance at their lands recaimed. Tough thingy for Hlaalu :shrugs:

one raggidman's view

St Jiub - bless him - who has a heart to match The Heart - and probably took to eradicating their nesting sites after I decimated so many thousands of the parents ... long live Saint Jiub!