Some time ago I got bored by Oblivion and went back to old classics of AD&D, which I like a lot. Games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights and what surprised me most was how different the lore in those games was. Not the content, but the depth. I realized how shallow the TES lore is, or at leas how shallowly it is reflected in the games. And if it does exist, it is something quite separate from the "life" in the game. Tell me, how many NPCs (except the incarnations of the player) are actually known and important in the lore?


There was Uriel Septim (now dead and heirless)

Mannimarco (but thinking about him brings back the agonizing memory of squeaking Altmer with a dagger)


But both of them are sort of specific for some quests. But imagine that you read about some hero in the books, you hear people talking about him and then you meet him. Not as an epic quest, but just because he lives on the same planet as you. Imagine that you walk in the path of someone you have read about in a book. In AD&D games you have characters that you hear about, that you can meet, like Elminster, Blackstaff, Drizzt and others


I think this is something TES games lack terribly. And not only about single people, but also about whole factions. In Morrowind, where there were guild requirements, you could at least sometimes feel that getting to a higher rank means achieving something. You had guilds that had meaning and a history. At least a bit. But in Oblivion? To join a guild all that is required to do so is to put together a sentence like "me wants in" and that is it! How can you feel pride in being in a guild when you know everyone can be there? And why don't the guilds have more lore behind them? With some of them we know how they were created, but who was some very influential Archmage since Galerion? Or do you know any significant leader of Fighter's Guild? No. I think this is something TES V should work on. Putting reason behind things would make the game much more life-like.

Which TES games did you play? Just Oblivion or any of the others?

According to Todd Howard, lore doesn't matter; worse, it detracts from the game. What matters is familiarity -- if the game has a setting so bland and generic that you already know everything you need to know about it just by having seen a LotR movie and having heard your friends talk about World of Warcraft, then it is a game with a good setting. Trying to make something unique and distinctive is overdoing it, and merely shows that you let the designer indulge in their guilty pleasure of creating stuff.


http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/426/426475p1.html

There are more colorful characters in the Elder Scrolls lore than I could even begin to count.

Did you play Daggerfall or Morrowind?

I kind of do have to agree with Najaknevrec (That was really annoying to spell)

The lore in elder scrolls is kind of shallow all though it does seem almost overwhelming.

If you try to find out how many battles have been recorded in TES lore I think the count is at 4 i don't remember but I counted 2 years ago.

quite honestly the only thing that really is expansive is all the gods and realms and all that stuff

It hardly explains alot of stuff that should be there

for instance (correct me if I'm wrong) apparently in the time before morrowind but after the batlle of red mountain the tribunal spent there days wandering around Vvardenfel aimlessly and made a bunch of shrines.

TES does have more lore than a great majority of games but the impact that it has on the world and the actual amount of informaation in it is definitely lacking

Just Oblivion and Morrowind



Well, that is a part of the problem, the lore that existshas little impact on the game. You can read it on internet, but not in the in-game books. You can discuss it in forum threads, but cannot hear people in the game to speaking about it.

TES has lots of dieties, saints and daedra, but what do we really know about them? I mean, we know that Arkay deals with life and death, but that is about it. What is it like to serve him? What does he like? What is he like? This is what I miss a lot.

As I have said, lore is very important to me and I guess that making lore is not just a passtime for bored devs.If Todd Howard sees it so, well, I guess he is terribly wrong.

And yes, TES has some interresting charactes (I can remember some, for some reason more of them are from Morrowind then Oblivion), but they have only place in their game and then you know nothing about them. Like Lord Fyr for example. He was kind of nicly done in Morrowind, but I'm almost sure that there was nothing about him in either Daggerfall or Oblivion.

There are things I'd like to know more about, but I just assumed if something's not revealed it's because they haven't come up with something they want to make finalized and official about it yet. I dunno if that makes it shallow; for example a record of battles wouldn't be very exciting. But they do mention the ones that have had influence on the plots like Cryngaine field and the War of the First council. My guess is they try to avoid filling in details unless they can give it some kind of significance or make it part of a story. Like, they could probably get someone to come up with "what was Vivec doing between years 325 and 595?", but doing it all at once like that would mean the results probably wouldn't be very interesting and would be something they'd be stuck with to work around later if they wanted to use that character again. Instead they can just mention the highlights and leave the rest open for additions, like the story of Vivec meeting Cyrus.

:facepalm: :lmao:

You really have to be kidding.

The first big difference between AD&D and TES is that AD&D lists stuff (history) like an eleven plus or 'O' level exam (for those not familiar they are exams that were set for youngsters at ages 11 and 15) andf that's really it until the devs come up with some more history that fits so neatly the same person might have written both - a sign of an elementary curriculum - however colorful or amusing. You are not exactly encouraged to question it by the very nature of the game. We came up against this in another thread where it had to be pointed out that TES has been creating an entire cosmology that is still being expanded. Not just telling people the sky is blue, the sun is yellow, but an alternative ... metaphysics.

What holds AD&D back is that all characters are good, neutral, chaotic or evil etc. That starts with the player and runs all the way through the 'Lore' and cannot be questioned. Once all is pigeon-holed like that the rest is set in concrete.

The doings of the Gods? In ES are the foundation of thought and speculation in the game - in AD&D that loses all plasticity because you already know what is possible and you are left with simple addition and subtraction.

Yes I have played AD&D - started over 20yrs ago before consoles and computers and was well aware of the genre before then - I enjoyed it and I would enjoy playing it now if I started again - but it has a long way to go before it reaches the levels that Daggerfall, Morrowind and (even) Oblivion have achieved and still aspire to. And both styles of Lore and game reach wide audiences.

Try reading all the ES in-game books and as you read ask yourself what is missing in your understanding. The thing is that where ES is concerned you are confusing your own (stated) lack of understanding with lack of content. It has happened to me too - I have missed things in ES and been soundly bashed for it. I'm not trying to talk down to you, But please note there are people on the forums that have understood things simply from reading the in-game books and others who have learned those same things by chatting on the forums here. The nice thing about these forums is that everyone here is learning more about the books they have alrready read and being delighted that there is actually more in them than they previously realised - and that's the sign of a healthy literature/history etc.

Okay. I was wondering because what you said mostly applies to Oblivion.

This isn't really the right discussion to explain but the biggest contrast between DnD is that everything fits in a larger frame of reference. Dnd always gives me the impression that everything was put together for no good reason. I really prefer this connectedness over a list of minutia because with TES when you understand the system you can even understand things that weren't written about. With DnD you are stuck to those facts.



To be fair, most of those deities have not yet existed for a long time and the provinces they belong too haven't been featured in any game yet. So if you look at the House of Troubles or the Anticipations you'll see there is allot more on them then any of the other Daedra. The same goes for the Tribunal.

That we don't know as much about Arkay or any of the other Divines, well, blame Oblivion.



I think this is only normal in the Forgotten Realms where every bartender is a retired 16+ Hero with a small fortune stowed away in his basemant.

For every other place, why should there be? Without news papers and fast communication stories don't travel very fast or very far. You might see his name pop up in the minutes of the Elder Council because he attends and you can expect the other council members to know who he is and what he does but I wouldn't except most people who do not meet him personally to know about him.

That is, if there actually was an Elder Council in Oblivion.

Ya could have just shot him in the foot, same amount of damage, less time Sigged, [censored]cake.

But as for if lore is important, [censored] yeah. makes it an organic, living world, makes it fun and interesting to play if yeh have this underlying layer of stuff that isn't neccessary as far as actual gameplay goes but makes it deep and cool.

See :shrug: - even a super mario fan knows this

So it was Opposite Day when he said that, right?

Hey, Paper Mario (well, the second two) has a deep plot that seems even deeper for it's somewhat childish art style.

But on-topic, yeah, Lore makes it real fun. Without lore, it's just generic fantasy, and that's kinda boring after the first two or three times.

I hope so, but you know who shows up if you talk about him too much...

my point about the battles wasnt as much that they hadnt described the battles but rather that they hadn't really expanded on it

for instance in 3E 396 there were a bunch of wars between all the provinces but other than a few books that mention small conflicts inside these very little is known

The entire premise of the Arnesian War is that there was a slave revolt in House Dres territory, and then the Dunmer killed them all and Symmachus was dead.

That is one of the longer stories about a war in Tamriel (the only ones that have longer ones generally are directly associated with the plot of the game (War of the First Council) or have a book that isnt really about them but mentions it (The War of The Isle)

I still think that TES has good lore but it could be expanded upon a great deal

i feel that stuff like explanations of battles would be uninteresting. not much we can discus there, not much of an impact it would make. i'd prefer to know what specifically lead up to the battles (cultural differences that influenced it, how it changed the political landscape of tamriel) then who lead each army or how many died.

the main difference between TES and other things is the type of lore, not its amount or influence on the game. WoW has lore (specifically on the nature of gods and battles ) but TES has lore that is less tangiable to the general public, lore on things like the disappearance of the dwemer and the alesian rebellion that goes beyond "and then nerevar totally pwned dumac" into realms of the religious, philosophical, metaphysical, etc.

it would be interesting to know who founded the fighter's guild or what the battle of Bend'r-Mahk was like, but i would prefer to find out about the fall of yokuda and the nature of the 'gods' existence (not superficial things though, stuff more like the dawn era thread but with more sense).

im really not sure if that made any sense.

I actually like the bit about familiarity - that is so true and you can include game designers that play games among those consumers. What really does it though is when someone has a new take on a known or familiar theme that interests and excites the emotions (I see the desire for intellectual stimulation as emotive) that's the jackpot. Some folks are just so precise and clear in their thinking they achive this in a few words, apparently effortlessly, and it takes your breath away - others achieve the same end with a lot of huffing and puffing (no shame in that.)

Where I diverge from Todd's statement is that he has not qualified his statement about Lore. ?It may seem easier to ignore Lore - and what is Lore:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lore


you might say
No folklore = no fantasy
No facts = no game

Maybe Todd was grousing about all the trouble trying to deal with ES Lore has caused him over the years but then without the Lore he likely would not have a job. No worries Todd - I shall do my best to add as much no-headache, anxt-free Lore as I can - just don't let the nitwits gut ES just because they actually wanted something else.

When you reject Lore you end up buying London Bridge instead of Tower Bridge.

Well I partially agree with you in that if they really did mention how half of the wars changed anything. A large portion of the things in the books and what not affect the game in a very small way if any. For instance how the lore from Biography of the Wolf Queen at all affected Oblivion. I'm not trying to be anti-TES i'm just saying that the lore could be better and it could affect the game more.

What about Barenziah? She's sort of a famous character, if not heroic, but is written about in books, and you get to meet her in Morrowind (and Daggerfall and Arena, I think).

Bethy don't hurt me, don't hurt, no more!


Definitely not Arena.
She was introduced in Daggerfall, where she was Queen of Wayrest through her wedding with King Eadwyre. Eadwyre's children conspired against Barenziah's children for inheritance, and it was Elysana, Eadwyre's daughter, who won the intrigue contest, forcing Helseth to go back to Morrowind. (Barenziah's other child, her daughter Morgiah, had in the mean time managed to marry the King of Firsthold in the Summerset Isles thanks to help from the King of Worms.) Barenziah accompanied him. Helseth, through sheer coincidental luck and certainly not assassination or other shady proceedings, succeeded King Hlaalu Athyn Lethan shortly thereafter.

All that happened between Daggerfall and Tribunal. Outside of Daggerfall and Morrowind with Tribunal extension, you can't see her; she's neither in Arena nor in Oblivion.

Yes I know all that, I just thought she was randomized as a royal in Arena, and given a backstory in Daggerfall. Well clearly I was wrong about that bit. Though there was the subsequent retcon that decided she was involved behind the scenes in combating Tharn's plot.

I think you can say that without being seen as anti-TES. You should have seen the ruckus here a few days after release, we were practically in tears.

Quite an interesting thread.

When I saw that you said that TES doesnt have enough lore I was kinda shocked. For a while when I first started playing Morrowind I didnt read any books, and yet I still felt deap in the lore of the game. I don't see how I would have that feeling if there wasnt enough lore.

Although I could see where oblivion would make you feel as though there isnt enough lore, and what was there felt force feed, like here do this quest and this is why, and then you don't really get any thing from the commoners...or you do but I think its very little and far between.

Ghost

I think Morrowinds lore has more depth than any DnD world. And Forgotten Ralms is that most generic/thrown together of those.

-edit, Forgotten Realms has allot of detail, masses of characters and places... but it's not great lore (in my opinion obviously).

:lmao: All right then, Mr. Howard. So tell me why should I buy your game instead of a LOTR one? Why buy the copy if I can play the original? :poke: