I made this thread because alot of people seem to think that Bethesda has tottally ripped off Fallout's law and failed to regard the state of affairs as of the end of Fo2.

I'll list a couple of the biggest arguments and my opinions, ofcourse i'll accept all opinions, and i'm not trying to negetivley target ceartain segments of Fallout's audience, i'm just trying to understand the argument.

1. "All Vaults had x G.E.C.K's Bethesda's has very limited ammounts!" While this is true, the whole storyline is based around the GECK, at the start Dad could of just taken it and the whole situation would be finished in minutes. And no - they shouldn't of carried on with Van Bauren, because Bethesda isn't Black Isles. Not to mention the fact that the less GECK's due to financial reasons makes more sense, as one assumes that these important pieces of equipment would cost alot of manpower and money to produce and distribute.

2. "How did the Enclave get from x to x !?" Ground vehicle convoys, Vertibirds, they could of had outposts away from the main base, as you'd excpect any military force to have, just because everything isn't exactly specified it dosen't mean it's impossible.

3. "Plasma rifles WTF!" A few weeks before release Bethesda released a video to IGN discussing weapons and showcasing some, during it they said they show how "Technology has advanced."

Enjoy

1. I agree that they shouldn't have carried on with Van Buren. It's just someone else's idea, and the only people who could have really done it justice are the original devs.

As for GECKs. I have no problem with their explanation of the rarity of GECKs in DC. I just wish that they did...something else, for their main story. Water and GECKs? It's just been done, y'know?

2. I think the bigger problem that most people have with the Enclave is not how they got to DC (after all, they DO have the means to traverse wide areas of land). But what they're doing in the third installment at all. They aren't the main villains in Fallout (like, let's say, the Empire in Star Wars). If Fallout were a TV series, they would just be the "villain of the week." Appearing only in one episode (Van Buren makes no mention of them and instead introduces a new villain, so it could be possible that they weren't set for a comeback). Just like FO1's Master.

3. Wait, what? Is this an issue? Plasma rifles have been around since the first Fallout.

Yup, I expected something more original than the same villainous organization coming back with pretty much the same basic plan (achieving genetic purity through exterminating wastelanders with modified FEV).

And all they needed in 2 was the perfected FEV that doesn't kill pure humans, and instead of going with the original plan (throwing the stuff out from vertibirds), they screw around with the water purifier.

Those who believe 100% of whats in the marketing material deserve the disappointment they're going to get. The GECK being in every vault could just have been the marketing line. Who's going to sue you for false advertising after the bomb? More to the point, where are they going to sue you?

Agreed

Perhaps there are problems with Gauss that we don't know about in game - perhaps some parts are hard to make, especially with the loss of the oil rig, maybe the EC rounds are hard to make or that the Enclave hasnt been able to restart production?

As for Villan of the week - The Daleks started like that (in the Story arc of the same name), with no logical answer given as to how they moved from their City in Skaro (which Daleks could not phyisically leave) and ended up on earth in "The Dalek invasion of Earth".

Thank goodness noone held that story back on this - IMHO its the best Dr Who Story arc ever.

i dont remember were i read it but it was said that after the oil rig was blown up the remnants of the enclave left for raven rock in DC after eden assumed control and commanded them too

Fine; havn't played fall out 1 and 2, but Beth wisely did let the game take place in the Untouched East (i'f it was because of there company, or since it was untouched i don't know) .... I don't know about the West, but even in the West there were experiments going on (I heard about Necropolis wich was supposed never to close), i'm sure it makes perfect sense that in the east coast there is only one vault with a g.e.c.k ...

About the Enclave, well they seem to have a deal of vertibirds, and i can think the Enclave has more outposts in the States than only at the West Coast, North America is larger it's larger than Europe and Australia are so many things are possible ....

Don't know about Plasma Rifles I can life with them ....

Universal agreement then.

I wonder if Ausirs want's to come round and rip my argument to shreds. *whistles*

1.) Never understood why people thought GECKs would be in every Vault. Only 17 were meant to repopulate the planet. The rest were monitored while working, often tested to see how simple changes would affect the human psych, etc. Most if not all test Vaults were predicted to fail, so they probably wouldn't care about the inhabitants after their tests were carried out.

2.) That's easy. Oil Rig is main base. Raven Rock was an East Coast Base. Probably all the troops were there already before the Westward ones came over. What they were doing appears to be more tests on Deathclaws and the like.

3.) . . . there was a problem with Plasma rifles? I could understand a problem with their design but...uh, those existed back in Fallout 1.

what?

Maybe because it was specifically said outright in FO2 that each Vault had 2 GECKs?

E.g.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/FCDJOSH.MSG



http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/VICENCOM.MSG



In FO2 it was an unusual situation for a Vault to have only one GECK, let alone not have one at all.

Ah. A screw up by Bethesda. Although... it still doesn't make sense to send them to each. The Vault in the Necropolis, why would it get two? The Vault was meant to never shut. It was predicted that they would not survive. I could understand giving them stardard equipment that'd be seen by the citizens, but why include some miracle kit that is probably extremely expensive to make in a time that where resources are scarce, economy is lower, etc?

My belief is messages such as that in Fallout 2 were added to add to the placebo that all vaults were the same, meant to survive, etc. Logically, it doesn't make sense to add a bunch of expensive equipment that the Enclave wrote off to fail to begin with. Fallout 3, the Vaults probably should have had more GECKs in each though. Unless of course by the time those Vaults were made, since Bethesda said they were made later, there probably were more screw ups.

Before we even start arguing the lack of G.E.C.K.s, we might want to explain how exactly they went from FO1-2 McGuffins whose only use is to make transition from vault life to surface life easier to being Genesis Device-style matter reorganizers that can tear down arid wasteland at the subatomic level and turn it into lush farmland. Not only is that level of technology WAY beyond the capabilities of 2077 America, but it would be impossible to produce two apiece for each of the 122 vaults when the economy was already struggling to build power armor and giant robots. Makes absolutely no sense that they could build a device that would restore America to untouched splendor practically overnight, but not get Liberty Prime (a far less daunting challenge) up and running in time to meet the ChiComs at Anchorage.

And supposing we suspend our disbelief at the sudden glorification of G.E.C.K.s, then what happened to the "2 apiece" policy? You could argue that Vaults 101 & 112 didn't need them, the former because it was never meant to open and the latter because Braun was too busy with his games to worry about rebuilding. But what about Vaults 92, 106, or 108? Did Vault-Tec just decide that they were destined to fail and it wasn't worth the cost of providing them with G.E.C.K.s? And what happened to Vault 87's second unit? Considering the level of containment it was under, it's a little hard to believe that a Mutie just walked off with it. Not to mention that it seems to have failed alongside the previous three vaults, yet it got a G.E.C.K. and they didn't.

Vault 87 was also a special vault in that it was in reality not a vault at all rather an underground science base used to experiment with FEV. Vault 87 was very odd to me because of its exclusive use as a FEV laboratory, I thought the official canon had established the military, not private contractors like Vault-Tec, had taken FEV off the market sort of speak. As to the robot, it was out of desperation as were the G.E.C.Ks that were considered experimental by Braun, however, in Fallout 2 there is apparently two G.E.C.Ks per vault.

G.E.C.Ks aren't the end all be all in technological progress, though, as I am to understand, rather they contain some seeds for planting, chemicals to bring life to bad land and information on how to build a city. With how many of the vaults that failed around DC it becomes possible that because of some of the experiments that went on in the vaults, or their very nature, G.E.C.Ks weren't sent to them. With how many were being "disposed" in Vault 87 it becomes very plausible that Vault-Tec believed they would only need one for the research team that should have been left, just because G.E.C.Ks were standard issue in most vaults doesn't mean every vault. Were talking about corporation here, not the Soviet Union.

I don't think that's what the GECK was supposed to do in Fallout 3, though. You go off in search of one to utilize for Project Purity (I may be missing some of the details, but my understanding was that you were going to cannibalize it for useful parts as it pertained to the Project.) Anyways, it's use was only for getting the Project running, which was basically a large-scale water treatment plant. It's not supposed to be any sort of Genesis Device, all it's doing is purifying large quantities of water. (Which of course would go a long way towards making the land more easy to farm.)

(If anything, I think the big problem is why something like that is suddenly so complicated to make - you certainly don't need anything approaching a GECK to make clean drinking water nowadays. The technology behind making clean water doesn't even need to be all that advanced. Heck you can make irradiated water safe to drink in small quantities with a little bit of bleach, if you're in a rush. You can even do a pretty effective job with a basic still if you don't mind waiting a little longer.)

False marketing maybe? Just because Vault-Tec (and we know how trustworth they are) say they have it, dosen't mean they do.

All Vaults in FO1 and 2, maybe with the exception of Necropolis, had at least one GECK. It was said in dialogue that normally each Vault had two. It certainly wasn't false advertising until Bethesda decided to retcon it (or forgot to check it).

What is this about every vault in the first two games having a G.E.C.K? If that were true, there would be more places like Vault City. From what we saw in Fallout 2, very few of the vaults had even one G.E.C.K. Just because someone says otherwise doesn't mean it's true.

From the Fallout Bible: "The real reason for these Vaults was to study pre-selected segments of the population to see how they react to the stresses of isolationism and how successfully they re-colonize after the Vault opens."

This would explain why the Vaults would all need 2 GECKs...so what happened to the GECKs in Vault 12? The Ghouls could've used it, after all.....

Personally, though, I never understood why all Vaults were supposed to get GECKs, open up and let the world be repopulated. The testing I can understand, but the idea contradicts the intentions of the Enclave seen in Fallout 2. I can understand doing experiments on people in facilities that were never going to open again, but to let their experiments run wild and such on the land they intended to retake? That...really makes no sense. That's really really counterproductive.

I can agree with Bethesda's retcon overall though. It was probably for gameplay intentions then lore, really. If every Vault had 2 GECKs, you would've been able to get one right before walking out the door of Vault 101, or gone back there instead... then again, I would've prefered this then going to Vault 87.

Vault 15's (at least one) GECK was used in NCR. Vault 13's one GECK was there, the other one was taken by the Enclave to the Oil Rig. Vault 8's GECK was used for Vault City.



Or they could simply have came up with a new McGuffin instead of GECK again.

What about Vault 8's other G.E.C.K? What about the other likely vaults in California? If all vaults had G.E.C.K.S why didn't Necropolis have one? I found the whole G.E.C.K situation inconsistent in Fallout 2, and I think Bethesda chose the best path by saying that not every vault had a G.E.C.K. If it bothers you that much, remember that Fallout 3 is set on the east coast, and while every vault on the west coast may have received a G.E.C.K the east coast may have not been so lucky.

Could have. Probably should have. *shrug* I think they avoided putting too much new stuff in for a reason though.

Still, their retcon has very little problems with me. All Vaults recolonizing the world is a rather frightening prospect, considering how messed up the experiments could be in other areas...

Out of curiousity, did they ever mention in Fallout 3 where the Raiders ever came from? Most of them I assumed were born from Vault 106 decendents.

Actually, Lynette states that Vault 13 received Vault 8's second GECK.

...wait a sec, didn't she also say that they disassembled their second GECK? Now I'm confused.

Oh and I always got the impression that those Vaults that weren't supposed to work didn't get a GECK. Why should they, if they never open/aren't supposed to let the inhabitants survive?

I'll just point out that Fallout 3 is set on the otherside of the country, Ausir, i think you just have to accept that this is a case of false marketing/ mis-informed word of mouth/ budget costs/ different budgets in different places.

Not to mention the evidence for it being standard issue was from one of two different headquarters, I think, that it is safe to say it could depend on vaults. The Western headquarters does not mention Vaults back East, as I am led to believe.

Where is it established that Vault 15 definitely had a GECK and used it to build the NCR ?

I like the theory that GECK's were only given to Vaults that were not doomed from the start. Only fault in this is that in-game evidence contradicts it (example Vault 87 was doomed from the start, I dont think anyone was intended to survive long there!) and Vault 13 had a similar 'mission' to Vault 101 yet one had a Geck (or two) and the other did not!

Maybe Vault 76 had one they used and they have a pristine city waiting to be found in a future DLC ?