A Prince cannot be banished from his realm. It's more than being the King of England or similar. The Prince is the Realm and the Realm is the Prince. Both are so intertwined that they cannot be separated. It's like telling you you're not sapient because you're no longer human. You are a human AND sentient, and there's nothing you or anyone else can say to change it.

intense answers. thanks, but 6 and 7 don't make much sense^^. to me^^

Do explain.

I found something like that http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore%3a%50lanes_of_Oblivion#Soul_Cairn

There's a Daedric Prince for everything and anything and nothing, but there names are not known.

Do explain further, e.g. provide me a source.

I'm not being a [censored]. I truly wanna know.

:( I can't ATM, I remember it being somewhere though. I'll edit here when I do find it.

Interpret it how you will, but I do remember reading here and quit possibly in-game or TIL that there are indeed an infinite number of them, of whom we all know a select few's names.

Now that you mention it, it sounds vaguely familiar. I shall search.

edit: Sure it wasn't "http://www.imperial-library.info/gods/index.shtml" you were thinking of?

It's not found anywhere, to my knowledge. It's just that there are not gods for every conceivable human (and inhuman aspect of existence.) The et'ada are simply the concepts that we recognize, and because we can perceive them, they have a face. The unfathomable Prince would be invisible.

hmm...
such interesting daedric disussion. if any of you were concerned here, the dark kings have pulled away from daedra a little. they now follow a more...non-linear method. there are very few points within the game where daedra are not present in some way, i wanted my mod to be one of them. daedra are still a large quest part, due to the nature of the mod and the other two assassins guilds. i dont want a mafia that works only for money, but i definately dont want a cult. i hope you all like the new direction as much as i do. check out fabula de nihilo on the wipz for more details. thank you all.

I'll admit that I could have sworn there was a source that said there was an innumerable amount of daedra (or at least souls), however I've never been able to find it... I'm alot of help, I know... :shrug:

Maybe what is being referred to is some of the hype that attended the launch of Oblivion - a lot of that is still circulating.

There were various interviews with Devs and posts on the Forums that said Oblivion was about 16sq miles of Cyrodiil and to all practical purposes an infinite area of Oblivion. Basically what was referred to was the manner in which random cells were generated on entering Oblivion each time you use a non-specific Gate. At that time Todd & Co were not mentioning the difference between the MQ specials and random gates because they were trying to keep from revealing too much of the plot ...

If you consider that each random Gate may lead to a separate realm and add that to the concept that daedric princes are eternal - plus people calling the numbers of Daedroth legion, multitude, infinite, etc, add in tales of infinite tortures (or pleasures of the Daedic Seducers) then maybe you come out with infinite numbers. In approximation/by exagerration - and for all practical purposes. Certainly I would not be surprised if an ordinary NPC asserted infinite numbers ... as according to common knowledge in Tamriel they may well be perceived thus. It aint something that would surprise me - so I would be interested in where Bighead's bit came from too

The idea of infinite princes may be derived from the concept that Arkay did exist before human life but he didn't matter, because Death was meaningless then...perhaps the sixteen Daedra and nine Aedra who are recognized are only recognized because of their relevance to sentient life forms on Mundus? Indeed, what good are Stendarr's or Mara's values in the absence of humanity? Or on the other side of the coin, the values of Mephala or Boethiah?

They'd exist for the Imga then, duh...


But really, Mundus was created for (or arguably, from) sentient life, so naturally it's core values/attributes/laws/forces (whatever you want to call them) are going to based on the assumption that there is sentient life there. On the infinite princes things, while there may have been the potential for infinite princes during the Dawn, now that everything is solidified it is safe to say that there is a set number - there is at least the possibility of infinite souls/minor daedra, but the princes are set in place through the model of the Wheel.

Which is why during a Dragon Break, when the Wheel breaks down into the Hurling Disk (whose greater significance I don't understand and wish some amateur Whirler would elaborate on) the Mnemolia, who aren't real enough to exist in the artificial Mundus, zip through the sky and watch the Numidii obliterate each other.

I?d like you to elaborate on that one.

But wheel, spokes, and tower concepts are a little lost on me. I haven?t committed to fully reading/understanding those topics.

That?s why i don?t bother touching the CHIM subject... for now

I'm not exactly sure what you're wanting elaborated on concerning the disk, but on the Mnemoli, I'd pose that it isn't that they aren't real enough; rather they simply do not have the worship connection to Mundus required to get through the Lunar Lattice, and so when the Wheel becomes the Hurling Disk they may enter freely (ie. it "explores its five quarters as best she can without the help and regulation of worship, which are not needed (by which I mean, always there) during breakings of the sideways wheel").

For a basic summation. The Wheel is a model of the universe, consisting of a rim, 8 spokes, a hub and then the spaces between the spokes (numbering 16). The rim represents time, the spokes the eight Aedra, the hub is Mundus itself (the world), and the spaces are the 16 Daedric Princes. The Tower as a symbol (and not the towers of the Intercept) is what you see if you look at a wheel from the side, it is an 'I', a symbol which has ramifications all throughout the metaphysics of TES. The Tower is also important as an obstacle to be overcome (since a tower is generally a defensive structure), and for TES to "take the Tower" is to achieve a sort of godhood (which to go down that road further will lead into talks about CHIM). If you get the time, http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml is the quintessential text on the matter, and it lays it all fairly simply (at least the model of the Wheel and Tower).

Thanks, that?s exactly what i was after. Mnemoli is not a familiar term for me.



Thank you for the info. Vehk?s Teachings is one of my "To read" list. But i?m taking it slow. Thanks again for the summary, I?m sure it will be of great help to me

But does worship empower the entity, or personality, of the specific Star-Orphan, or does it make a divine concept real in Nirn? In effect, do the Mnemolia require worshipers of themselves or simply knowledge of their spheres? I'm not sure, because all I remember about their characteristics is that they represent memory or some such, perhaps memory of old worldskins. I haven't read the texts in a long time.

hey all. being i that created this thread, i feel a certain responsibility to bump it so paw prints might get his question answered. thanks all.

For the uninitiated, apprehension of the wheel requires belabored effort, and even the learned can forget if they look away for too long. Those who retain focus run the risk of being lost forever: this is the danger, and the promise. I will offer what I can.

Aurbis-as-universe, by which I mean comprehensible-to-mortals, is an organizational consequent of the intersection of Akatosh-Lorkan, which is in turn a subgradient of the Anu-Padomay identity-schism-co-correlation. Within this structure the et'Ada are able to take on semi-constant natures, which on a lower subgradient becomes a certain alignment within the wheel, of which the Aedra and Daedra are the most well understood, though still very little. This alignment, setting aside the protean elements, which we cannot speak of anyways, renders itself as an array of stases and their interstices, being an organizational schematic conducive to the stability of the Mundus. Further characteristics of these spirits are a factor of mortal recognition, which should be understand as a synthesis of divine-nature and mortal-need-practice-projection, which is not without its anthropomorphic elements. Upon the intermittent destructuring of this design, former alignment becomes abnegated, and consequently Mnemoli, who has no true alignment, becomes as substantive as any other et'Ada, which is to say, all the others become even less.

just wanted to know if anyone had anymore questions^^. i have figured most stuff out, and am writing as i speak. thanks all^^

i have a couple questions,...

1. If Vivec is Mephala, then what role does Mephala play? Vivec is worshiped as poetic warrior of sorts, so what is Mephala? his other side? why are they the same/different?

2. why do Dunmer disregard Vivecs past as Mephala?

3. was Chimara(sp?) a race? if so, what were they?

4. are there any other races that arent included in TES series besides the aleids, and dwemer?

5. Mankar Camoran is a Daedric Prince correct? prince of what?

1. Vivec and Mephala aren't the same being. Mephala is the anticipation of Vivec, meaning that Vivec currently fills the same (or a similar) mythical role as Mephala used to.
2. I think most Dunmer acknoweldge Vivec's connection to Mephala. For information regarding both of these questions, see http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/vivec_mephala.shtml.
3. The Chimer were a race of mer that eventually became the Dunmer. For more try a http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=72791987&pageid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&query=veloth, because there are many different relevant texts.
5. Yes, check the http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=15282&st=0&p=2973155&#entry2973155.
6. Mankar Camoran is not a Daedric prince, he's a bosmer with some close connections to a Daedric prince (Mehrunes Dagon, to be specific).

very good... thank you.