lore questions

Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:22 am

For death, under normal cercumstances, everyone will be recycled through the Dreamsleeve, where all your memories, experiences, and pretty much everything is erased, and, by lottery, you get scooped out and put into a mortal body. So, in basic terms, souls are washed up and recycled. If you bound yourself to a particular daedric prince, you ended up with them. This was observed in Paradise in OB and SI. Same deal with Aedra.

The deal with Nords, though, I.......would say consult the lore specialists here. For now, I leave you http://imperial-library.info/mwbooks/bm_sovngarde.shtml . The thing I notice about it, is that it seems extremely heavily based on the Norse's thought of the afterlife, in order to prepare for Raganok (the norse apocalypse). If it does hold water, then those Nords bound themselves to Shor (Lorkhan in elvish), and went to him. I don't particularly like this explanation for Nords, but I'm open to ideas concerning this.
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michael danso
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:24 am

So......it's pretty ambiguous.


Sovn - Sleep
Garde - armgaurd

Also:

Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE?either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion. Vehk's name for this transaction, mentioned above, is "lunar currency".
- Loveletter

Which seems to constructed here:

The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate. - Intercept

But also applies to other divinities:

We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers, thus to practice and thus to rapprochement, until finally we might through new eyes leave our hearths without need or fear that she remains behind. In this moment we destroy her forever and enter the demesne of Lord Dagon. - Commentaries

Furthermore:

Arkay is the God of the cycle of life and death. We're born from the dreamsleeve and return to it on death in an endless cycle that is always new.

Birth:

We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers, thus to practice and thus to rapprochement, until finally we might through new eyes leave our hearths without need or fear that she remains behind. In this moment we destroy her forever and enter the demesne of Lord Dagon. - Mythic Dawn Commentaries


Mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth, without any divinity (unmantled) safe for the symbiosis with the special divinity of Nirn (our mother, Mankar wan't to destroy Nirn).

The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate. - Nu-Mantia Intercept


This special divinity comes back in the intercept, Red Mountain (tower) holds Lorkhan's Heart (stone). Lorkhan's heart is also called the divine spark, our shared divinity. As such, we already much like the Daedra, we're separate parts of a larger divinity.

Death:

When people from different cultures all believe in an afterlife and all seem to get exactly what they expect, it is reasonable to assume that their experiences are influenced by their expectations. The Nords believe they go to a place called Sovngarde which can be translated as to a meaning that means as much as the Dreamsleeve, the sleep-enclosure. So we're already back the start.

"The echo of the Void is Oblivion. The echo of Oblivion is now mortal death. Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE?????€?????????????either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion. Vehk?????€????????€????s name for this transaction, mentioned above, is ?????€????????€????€?"lunar currency?????€?????." - Loveletter from the Fifth Era



This shouldn't be read as some Heaven and Hell afterlife were people who've done enough bad things end up in Oblivion. The AE literally is a connector and in the sermons it is often used as: "AYEM AE VEHK AE SETH", Almelexia and Vivec and Sotha Sil, Almsivi.

This connection is the soul. Normally, when a person is killed he experiences afterlife, when a Daedra is slain he experiences the void. A soul trap can force the soul to remain connected to a soulgem and a Necromancer can call back souls and force them to animate a body again.
Ghosts can return out of their free will if they have something that binds them, but often you'll see that they've already started to disintegrate and are starting to lose their memories and thoughts while they're being mangled and stripped from their identity in the dreamsleeve.

As I've already shown above, mortals are born from the dreamsleeve, it's their to their divinity so their allinged AE goes to Mundus and while the God planets of the Aedra are often interpreted as Aetherius, they are part of Mundus, they are the gift limbs.

It's also what allows Mankar Camoran to pick up his followers in his Paradise, they've given up Mundus ("destroy her forever") and become part of Mehrunes Dagon ("enter the demesne of Lord Dagon")

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Emmanuel Morales
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:24 am

For death, under normal cercumstances, everyone will be recycled through the Dreamsleeve, where all your memories, experiences, and pretty much everything is erased, and, by lottery, you get scooped out and put into a mortal body. So, in basic terms, souls are washed up and recycled. If you bound yourself to a particular daedric prince, you ended up with them. This was observed in Paradise in OB and SI. Same deal with Aedra.

The deal with Nords, though, I.......would say consult the lore specialists here. For now, I leave you http://imperial-library.info/mwbooks/bm_sovngarde.shtml . The thing I notice about it, is that it seems extremely heavily based on the Norse's thought of the afterlife, in order to prepare for Raganok (the norse apocalypse). If it does hold water, then those Nords bound themselves to Shor (Lorkhan in elvish), and went to him. I don't particularly like this explanation for Nords, but I'm open to ideas concerning this.

Sovngarde sounds vry similar to Valhalla.
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Saul C
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:59 am

From the typical Nordic perspective, it is.

But...if you would actually read proweler's post, you'd realize it's just the Dreamsleeve.
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Latino HeaT
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:20 am

Sovngarde sounds vry similar to Valhalla.

That's what was escaping my tongue!

Anywho, Prowler answered the question about death and birth. There is no grim reaper, and heaven and hell.
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chinadoll
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:09 pm

That's what was escaping my tongue!

Anywho, Prowler answered the question about death and birth. There is no grim reaper, and heaven and hell.


Basically imagine that to the Daedra you are just one more of a loooong stream of mortals that have passed through that realm one way or another during their immortal existances = you are sorta unusual but not totally novel. Especially as so many have 'visited' Tamriel ...

If you get the chance to play Battlespire you will discover that Daedra do not have an en-mass attitude to what you are - mortal, mer, whatever ... they do have their Prince's general view to go on and that they represent theoretically - but in point of practice they are as likely to welcome you as anything else - with each Daedroth following his/her/its own personal preferences according to their assessment of you and your possible use to them.

We have seen it is possible for mortals to go to and remain in Oblivion - and the experience can be wondrous or torture according to the whim of the Prince and any Daedroth more powerful than you ... a bit like Tamriel eh? So what happens if the Prince of th eRealm has not taken an interest in you? Anything.

What you really need to do is ignore the Uber-power side for a minute and look at the different characters of the various regions to decide where your character's quest and nature might best fit in and how.

Check the Daedra that are known to be there and then add some more that are less numerous and possible more specialised for character interest.

Build up your own view of their society (suggest a lot of reading the stuff at TIL re Battlespire if you can'y play that game but be warned that though the player's account about that is no doubt accurate it does not give the atmosphere of things there and misses a lot of the interaction) then gently make a lot more stuff up. The uberhit-mensch thing is great for a player, but as as modder you have to put in a bit more or it looks empty and stale.

best of luck,
1999

ps - keep on digging at the minds of these guys and add that too ;)
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Daniel Lozano
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:04 pm

note:this thread contains religious references that aren't big but still in existance due to the topic. please do not think of these as a bad thing, they are merely to help people understand my points. thank you

k thanks. so, there is a reincarnation of sorts where you experience all your memories being taken away as you are wrapped in an illusion of what you believe afterlife is like. but, even in christian and other religions with heaven and hell, like you said, and religions that believe in reincarnation, there still seems to be a grim reaper. the reaper, as we mostly know him, came from europe, who also believe in a similar afterlife system, minus the reincarnation. so, with the afterlife answered, is there any lore specific to the actual death? is there a river styx with a boatman to take you away? an angel of death? or a grim reaper? if i'm not mistaken, and i probably am, there is room for a grimm reaper.
also, does anyone have tes apacolypse theories? thanks all for rapid an efficient responses.

some real life links to consider:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grim_reaper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterlife
some tes links possibly related:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods_A
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ark%27ay%2C_the_God_of_Birth_and_Death
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aetherius
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Mod_Ideas/Quests#Death_option note:this is not where i got my idea for 4 horseman and mine won't be anything like it. i actually got the idea from the apacolypse marathon on the history channel
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Sanctum
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:24 am

Lorkhan's coming back.

/apocalypetheories

From what I've read, there is no sort of Psychopomp/grim reaper figure outside of Shor himself.
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Stacey Mason
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:27 am

k thanks. so, there is a reincarnation of sorts where you experience all your memories being taken away as you are wrapped in an illusion of what you believe afterlife is like. but, even in christian and other religions with heaven and hell, like you said, and religions that believe in reincarnation, there still seems to be a grim reaper. the reaper, as we mostly know him, came from europe, who also believe in a similar afterlife system, minus the reincarnation. so, with the afterlife answered, is there any lore specific to the actual death? is there a river styx with a boatman to take you away? an angel of death? or a grim reaper? if i'm not mistaken, and i probably am, there is room for a grimm reaper.
also, does anyone have tes apacolypse theories? thanks all for rapid an efficient responses.

Pft, you don't know your real-world mythologies very well. Styx is in the Greek mythology, the boat-dude in Charon. And I'd hardly describe the Valkyries as grim reapers. ;)

I LIKE CATS.
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Dezzeh
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:53 am

shor is a nordic entity, and i have decided t not use most of their ideas. thanks 94

how about this idea? lorkhan uses the 4 riders as a part of an Apocalypse? hold any ground? as a part of a mod, not a real lore thing that has been said in a book >.< i am not taking ideas from the library here, i am finding places in lore that are fuzzy.

the horseman are not predetermined, i made that part up. what i was asking is whether or not lorkhan already has his method of annihilation set or not?

ah, Valkyries, those ladies on horses in courage the cowardly dog. got it. they are pretty much the real world equivalent of Nordic things and, as i said, i refuse to use Nordic mythology and theology.

hmm...yama, Izanagi, thanatos, or an angel that makes people drink a drop of gall, i don't really mind. they are all death and are forgotten to all who do not practice that religion or wikipedia search things. the grim reaper, however, is a socially acceptable media icon, so why can't he be a part of subculture? same with the horseman?
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lillian luna
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:01 pm

How can you discount a theory because it's different from everyone elses??? Using this logic, the Dunmer is probably the most "wrong" religion of them all: they revere DAEDRA LORDS AND LIVING GODS.

No metaphysical/religious idea in TES is necessarily wrong. If you refuse to believe it, that's your right. But all your doing is shortchanging yourself.

And the "Lorkhan is coming back" theory isn't necessarily predominantly nordic. But I only say that if you were claiming it was.

And, once again from what I've read, there is no ground for the "Lorkhan uses 4 Horseman" idea.
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Queen
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:27 pm

how about this idea? lorkhan uses the 4 riders as a part of an apocolypse? hold any ground?

I've certainly never read of any calamity sowing horseman of the apocalypse in Tes.
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Jynx Anthropic
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:53 am

From the typical Nordic perspective, it is.

But...if you would actually read proweler's post, you'd realize it's just the Dreamsleeve.

I know, I did read that, I meant only taking account of the Nord's beliefs.
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sally coker
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:17 am

I see that now. Apologies :)
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Olga Xx
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:29 pm

the grim reaper, however, is a socially acceptable media icon, so why can't he be a part of subculture? same with the horseman?

Well they've never been mentioned in TES and its not terribly creative.
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Oceavision
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:50 am

are you not allowed to make up parts of history that were not there nor anything in that particular niche of existance? there was no psychopomp, so i thought a grim reaper could work. lorkhan's apacolypse was not specific, so why not make a new idea for it? if bethesda comes out and says that that is something they are going to specify later, then i won't use it, but short of that, nothing says anything against it, does it?

as 1999 already stated
Build up your own view of their society (suggest a lot of reading the stuff at TIL re Battlespire if you can'y play that game but be warned that though the player's account about that is no doubt accurate it does not give the atmosphere of things there and misses a lot of the interaction) then gently make a lot more stuff up. The uberhit-mensch thing is great for a player, but as as modder you have to put in a bit more or it looks empty and stale.

hmm...yes, the grim reaper is too popular. put then again, so is necromancy, ninjas, fancy islands your uncle leaves you with a palace on it, and so on. if a mod exists that does this, let me know, but many of us would like to play as a messenger of death or whatnot. that's the purpose of roleplaying, no? using pre existing ideas and pretending you are the main character?

hmm...thanks 94, so the spot is generally open then? are there any mods that do anything to this? if so, are they lore accurate, fun, and popular. if not, i see nothing wrong with it darth :(. grim reaper may be slightly used often, but the reason is that people like the idea
if this is against modding, let me know

by the way, if nay of you think the dark kings is about the grim reaper, you are sorely mistaken. they areassassins. the reaper is just a single facet of it. if i can convince these guys^^
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Dagan Wilkin
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:37 pm

are you not allowed to make up parts of history that were not there nor anything in that particular niche of existance? there was no psychopomp, so i thought a grim reaper could work. lorkhan's apacolypse was not specific, so why not make a new idea for it? if bethesda comes out and says that that is something they are going to specify later, then i won't use it, but short of that, nothing says anything against it, does it?

Well theres nothing wrong with making up stuff for your mod, but personifying death and adding the four horseman is not creative.
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Stephanie Nieves
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:44 am

The closest thing to your "Lorkhan-horseman" idea you'll probably ever find is Lorkhan's shield-thanes, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml, and the two are totally unrelated ideas; one of the gods is even extinct now. And it's Nordic.
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Nancy RIP
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:25 am


All I'm saying is that I think it would be better to come up with something truely unique (or sufficently obscure) then to re-use two things that have been done to death in fiction.
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benjamin corsini
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:10 am

thought little thing up there was too big^^. so, tsun died from other gods, eh? so can gods kill gods, or is that just nordic? what about daedra ;). as all of you know, the kings is all about daedra^^

hmm...i think, due to the advice of many, especially ventus, that i will take out the horseman, despite how much i liked them. they will probably be in a later mod i make. the grim reaper is still a part though. and the way i'm thinking of including him is cool, i think^^.
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Rebecca Dosch
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:06 pm

thought little thing up there was too big^^. so, tsun died from other gods, eh? so can gods kill gods, or is that just nordic? what about daedra ;). as all of you know, the kings is all about daedra^^

IF I'm not mistaken its:
Aedra can die.
Daedra can only be banished.
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Cheryl Rice
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:13 pm

The obscurity Ravager is speaking of is the obscurity of much of the metaphysical lore throughout TES. Go read http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml to get properly mind[censored]ed by this obscurity I'm speaking of.

Seriously, read them. It will change your life.

edit: I'm not too sure about the whole "gods can be killed" idea sits a lil uneasy with me. http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?act=findpost&hl=&pid=13524062 in an earlier thread.

Basically, I realize they can be..."removed" from existence, but my ideas on "killed" might be a slight bit different from everyone elses.
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Rebekah Rebekah Nicole
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:43 am

edit: I'm not too sure about the whole "gods can be killed" idea sits a lil uneasy with me. http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?act=findpost&hl=&pid=13524062 in an earlier thread.

Basically, I realize they can be..."removed" from existence, but my ideas on "killed" might be a slight bit different from everyone elses.

I read those posts earlier, and I must agree it seems a bit on the muddled side.
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Damian Parsons
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:00 pm

Basically, I realize they can be..."removed" from existence, but my ideas on "killed" might be a slight bit different from everyone elses.


Ever tried killing a river by building a dam? It's like that. :)
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QuinDINGDONGcey
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:43 pm

Ever tried killing a river by building a dam? It's like that. :)

So your changing the definition of the object? Build a dam and turn the river into a lake, you've killed the river in the sense that its a different type of body of water?
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STEVI INQUE
 
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