thank you for the anology proweler. the only reason i got that idea was because those nordic gods that worked for lorkhan, one got killed by other gods, it says. 94 says so:
The closest thing to your "Lorkhan-horseman" idea you'll probably ever find is Lorkhan's shield-thanes, Tsun and Stuhn, and the two are totally unrelated ideas; one of the gods is even extinct now. And it's Nordic.

So your changing the definition of the object? Build a dam and turn the river into a lake, you've killed the river in the sense that its a different type of body of water?

Or he could have meant it more literally... Just as you block the river from flowing, so too would you 'block' the Aedra - Meaning you'd not have anything to do with them... Like they wouldn't exist because no-one worshipped them or etc.

~Lost

Completely.

So your removing the concept that the god represents from mortal conciousness?

How would you DO that is what I'm wrestling with in my mind now.

THAT is why I'm having trouble with the idea in the first place. I know it's possible; I just don't know what EXACTLY needs to be done. How do you make people "forget" a god?

The World Eating 101 thread was really interesting to me in its last half, with the foreign gods fighting other gods; (if I ever knew,) I forgot how pantheons can fight other pantheons. I'd be forever grateful if someone could give me an iron clad explanation on the particulars of Tsun's death. I have an idea, but I'm not too sure about it.

Maybe if someone can answer that for me, maybe I can figure out how the Altmer can "erase Talos from the mythic." Along with removing him and Man from the realm of Possibility

Is it just me, or do the Aedra seem to change based on the concepts men & Mer have of them.

Take, for example, Akatosh. He was originally the 'God of Time' - but now he seems to be 'the defender of Men' or something, what with it and Martins stunt during the Oblivion Crisis.

It seems that because the eight Aedra have been tagged 'The Divines' - that is what they have become, and they must oblige to what the mortals 'think' about them.

I'm sure I read about this somewhere; but maybe I'm just imagining things...


?

~Lost

Maybe the Aedra aren't changing but are simply being perceived differently by mortals.

Prowler was saying that you are completely lost

Ah. I was wrong... Gottcha'

Strange ain't it?

Aka is the defender of men, but Shor is the spirit behind "all human undertaking." Combine that with all the [censored] about Aka giving his heartsblood to Al-esh and all the other schizo Aka/Shor BS that includes the Underkings, Talos, and Whitestrake and you wonder "who the [censored] is Lorkhan???"

We can't exist without the gods because, well, they control everything that we see, but the GODS cannot even EXIST without any worshippers or believers.

Who are the real parents? Gods or mortals?

which came first, the chicken or the egg deal, eh? so, if gods needed mortals to worship them, then how did mortals get created. well, in all creation things i've read, mortals were created by gods. what i think, is two things:
1) If the resources you get are all secondary sources, then they could be changed. Not all books are right. the Davinci code sounded sure of itself, but many believe it is not right. It might not be right, but no one knows. The only reason to believe any books on religion is divine intervention, like being able to go into the oblivion plane, talk to daedric princes at shrines, summon daedra, and get messages from the nine at their altars. But, anything can be changed, gods might not care whether the mortals know the truth, so they could allow false statements to fly around until they become accepted. I'm not saying show me proof that the books are true, but don't take everything at face value.
2)The gods, as mortals see them, would change as mortals change their ideals of them. If 100 years in the tes future, a king comes around that worships mehrunes dagon. Then would mehrunes dagon become the new accepted good guy? even if he wants to destroy things, if the people believe he's right and think he's either going to not destroy them or they want to be destroyed. It's all about perspective, man. The tricky thing with gods is that they don't sit down for interviews. And since we don't have a tes bible that i know of, we don't really know. The fuzzy parts of lore are what makes them mythology. If they weren't, then it'd be factual sciences.
Your trying to breach a topic that is very difficult. You have a few options on how to look at this. Look at it as a real mortal would in the tes world, look at it as a person would comaring it to real world gods, or look at it as a game designer. You could decide upon some things.
Of course, a combination of all these would work the best.
Seeing how i am no lore master, and i don't claim to be, tell me if this is trying to make it too much like a real life creation myth. Sorry, if this upsets anyone and let me know so i can edit it^^.

i found a few things though
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods_by_Pantheon
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Spirit_of_Nirn%2C_God_of_Mortals
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nirn
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods_Y
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Overview_of_Gods_and_Worship
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mundus
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ehlnofey
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aedra
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore%3a%44aedra
http://www.imperial-library.info/history/merethic.shtml
on the 36 lessons of vivec:
The netchiman's wife became soaked in the Incalculable Effort. The egg was delighted and did somersaults inside her, bowing to the five corners of the world and saying:

'Thus whoever performs this holy act shall be proud and mighty among the rest!'

5 corners of the world?
thanks 94

The game designers didn't decide on it because they can't. One dev that was resposible for some of the metaphysical lore asked this very question.

Concerning the metaphysical jive surrounding Dagon, I doubt he'd become the new Akatosh, especially if you meant King as in "Emperor" and not king as in "person who has control of Tamriel;" Emperors are High Priests of Akatosh. Also, Dagon is supposed to destroy the hell outta Nirn, so I don't know how a king would handle that.

Hell, if you wanna get deep - if you wanna get DEEP DEEP DEEP - Aka already IS Dagon! Go check your Hinduism.

At the risk of sounding pretentious, it seems you might be trying too hard to search for sources that give you objective answers; I'll go ahead and tell you that you won't. You need to just sit awhile, read, reread, then reread some more of the lore, thought it seems like you're already doing this .

Concerning five corners of the world:

Probably the most obvious way to interpret this is to go "the cardinal directions, then Up, right?" While i've never seen an objective answer for this, I'll give you MY take on it:

Numerologically speaking, 5 is a number of totality and divine perfection: humans have 2 arms and 2 legs and a head (when you stretch out your limbs, you form a pentagon, stars have 5 points, stars are considered gods, blah blah blah (ask if i need to elaborate on this.). Theoretically speaking, there are 5 dimensions of our world, the 3 dimensions of space, the 4th of time, and the 5th, which can be considered All Possibility, that is, EVERYTHING.

I think the 5 corners are 5 dimensions.

edit: Oh yeah, and I'm personally confident the Incalculable Effort is Love. When you start reading more of the Sermons, you'll notice the repetition of motifs and ideas you've read in past Sermons. Cross-reference information inside the Sermons to help you understand it more, e.g. the Incalculable Effort is mention later on in the sermons in the Scripture of Love.

Which is something dwemer lacked...I need to stop doing this!

so are you trying to say that the king can't institute a new religion and, over time, have it be accepted? even if it's practically devil worship, all religions have to be accepted by people, so, over time, many could accept it. that's the purpose of prophets, no?

no offense meant, 94.

Considering the metaphysics surrounding the creation of the Empire of Men, you couldn't necessarily change the religion so drastically to the point of worshiping Destruction itself, let alone drive worship away from the Divines in such a drastic manner. I don't find it plausible, anyway.

edit: to clarify a bit on the Incalculable Effort, the Effort - the Endeavor, rather - is the process of obtaining godhood. CHIM basically. Which is Love by proxy.

hmm...i thought if one destroyed all written history, architectural history, and force people by law to worship, the majority of the population would go with it. the rebels are the stars of a movie, but there aren't many actors compared to real people. anologically speaking, of course. thanks 94. also, lore question! wake up people^^

how do you spell psijii? for the psijic order, i believe? i tried to search it for my quest reasons, but it returned no results
any info you guys have, especially concerining the morag tong or brotherhood. thanks lore-buffs^^

hmm...
alright then, does anyone have a link to a psijiic order page?

You spelled it right. But if you wanna be sure, you can http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/chaos.shtml.

It depends on what kind of island it is. Is it a volcanic Island? Also, am I supposed to be reminded of the SHivering Isles?

no, not shivering isles. but, we made anew heightmap i will put up here soon. it was just something to prove the team and i were working. thanks all, especially ventus and running.

This is very interesting, I was wondering about early Tamriel history, and ancient history for a Time-Travel uber-mod I'm working on. Thanks folks, all of this new data will prove very useful to me. What a great thread, I'm glad others are interested in this.

hello waerloga. could you please ask specific questions. not many will give you random information about what you need^^, trust me. thank you for using my thread, and thank you for complimenting it^^.

hey all.http://www.mediafire.com/?1chi0teimiy. note: i have not stopped the mod, this is just a reference book i am making for myself. i am not able to do any cs work right now. lore buffs please check out. here is a teaser for those who don't feel like clicking:
A Fabula of Nihilo
By Darkom
Table of Contents
1. Exsilio - Banishment
2. Proditione- Treason
3. Fratris- Brothers
4. Consilio - Tactics
5. Disciplina- Training
6. Neco- Murder
7. Fato- Fate
8. Terminus- End
9. Morte - Death
10. Ultionis- Revenge
11. Viro - Hero
12. Victoria- Victory


Exsilio


In the beginning of mortal civilization, the daedra were still struggling to decide the borders of their realms, and control of men. The 15 daedra always existed, but they were not always the daedra they are today. Daedra, much like mortals, enjoy the company of servants, followers, and disciples. Except on the rare occasion they task things to mortal servants, their daedra followers take care of any business they might have. Daedra followers also succumb to the evils of mortals, such as jealousy, greed, and gluttony. As such the tale of the original webspinner, the first prince of assassination and secret murder, and the ex-master of mephala, Nihilo begins.
Note:my latin and lore are being corrected, and as soon as i finish proditio, then i will put up the new version here
to read all of Exsilio, please download book

The Deadra's name is Nihilio? as in Ex Nihilio? So Mephala's master is nothing?

well, ex nihilo originated within my mod when i wanted them to be athiasts. Then i just added it to my poll for giggles, and people voted on it. i dropped the ex and it seemed to stick. everyone liked it, but yes i found ex nihilo in latin as a play on words for athiasts, since many didn't like that they worshipped anything, so i would say, "they worshipped nothing^^". so if any of you read latin like regular english, then you may be bothered, sorry^^ oh, and that means that the book is called a tale of nothing^^.
thanks ravager

The word is "Atheists." Secondly, the phrase Ex nihilio is often used to refer to acts of creation by deities, as people like to say that Gods create "out of nothing."
Anyway, I say you stick with Nihilio, use it to explain The DB's concept of Sithis. (In your mod the DB is a sub-group under the control of the Dark Kings right?) The DB's Dread father is really a muddled version of Nihilio, a ruthless Daedric lord of the void. Over time his name was corrupted to Sithis thanks to misconceptions the DB had in relation to their terminology.