Quick question: would it make sense to believe that Lorkhan is still "teaching" us how not to fail at CHIM? I say that because, as I understand it, most people think he "failed" at his death and that his "death" is what NOT to do when trying to reach CHIM. Perhaps his death isn't his failure; perhaps he died (thus creating the Mundus) to SHOW mortals what not to do when reaching CHIM.

A li'l re-reading of the Loveletter made me ask this question. This just now went into my head and because my mind may change soon, I just want to see what you all think of that, and if you have a strong idea of why that's implausible (I'm sure a lot of you do), then please say so.

Before all of the "what is CHIM" posts come up, go read http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml.

edit: slightly reworded because I'm an illiterate piece of crap.

That was a mouthful. And I still don't quite get what you're trying to get across...

You need to restate that. From what I gather, I don't think you understand what the loveletter is saying, but I could be wrong as your statement was pretty hard to understand.

Heh, honestly I expected that; I rewrote it about 5 times before posting.

Basically, I'm sure most people understand that Lorkhan failed at CHIM because he died and that the way he died is how not to fail at it; the idea I'm submitting is that maybe his death is only PART of how not to fail at CHIM. Maybe the events of TES games are detailing events (not necessarily the main quests themselves, but events therein) that are detailing PARTS of Lorkhan's "idea," if you wanna call it that, of how not to fail at CHIM.

If he hadn't failed, the world would not have been created; maybe he died to CONTINUALLY teach mortals how not to fail CHIM.

That's what I was trying to say.

I dun think so. First let's answer this, how do you fail at CHIM? Zero Sum, which is the only real way to die in the Aurbis. How do you not fail at it, keep your Eye on the I. In dying, zerosumming, Lorkhan showed how not to fail. That's really it. Nothing else in the games themselves is giving us any hint, unless you had something in mind...

Muthsera,

A very interesting query. I must, however, respectfully disagree, and I do so for the following reasons:

1. The first idea(s) of Lorkhan-who-is-Akatosh was/were "I AM"/"I AM NOT". (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/sporedream.shtml)

2. Lorkhan said "I" when he viewed the Tower of the Aurbis. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#3)

3. An entity that knows CHIM both views and resides within the Tower. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#7)

4. An entity that both views and resides within the Tower (i.e., CHIM) returns to the "first brush of Anu-Padomay". (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#7)

5. Lorkhan wanted CHIM (notice that he does not have it because he has not yet returned to the "first brush" at this point), but he knew that doing would cause him to lose his individual identity. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#3)

6. The Convention caused amnesia in the Godhead. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/sporedream.shtml)

7. Time was nonlinear before the Convention. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/history/dawn.shtml)

8. Time became linear due to Lorkhan getting his Heart ripped out. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/history/dawn.shtml)

9. Red Mountain caught fire when the Heart landed. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/history/dawn.shtml)

10. Mnemoli is the Sphere of Memory. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#1)

11. The Godhead visits Memory (read: remembers) when Mnemoli passes by during an untime. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#1)

12. Red Mountain catches fire when the Godhead remembers. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#1)

13. The world ends when Mnemoli passes by due to the Alinor dragon (i.e. Alduin) waking up.

14. Alduin is seen as "rauaging firestorm" and "harbinger of the apocolypse". (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml)

15. The rauaging firestorm of Memory causes vanishing SEQUENTIAL sensation in the Godhead, which is why it is called an "untime". (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#1)

16. Sequential sensation is also called TIME. Time is Akatosh. Spirits (Lorkhan included) obtained their identities upon the creation of time. (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Altmeri)

17. Lorkhan cannot keep his identity without time, because returning to the brush of Anu-Padomay means losing time itself.

18. Gods cannot become mortal without ouside assistance, a "vehicle", for lack of a better word. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml)

19. The mortal plane was Lorkhan's vehicle. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml)

20. Mortals need a similar vehicle to get past mortal death. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml)

21. Mundus has its own Tower. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml)

22. Mortals, with the right "vehicle" can escape Mundus. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml)

23. The whole point of Mundus is to provide an escape from Mundus. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml) and http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/nirn.shtml)

*****

Because I believe that Lorkhan is attempting to return to a state of CHIM within the world within himself, instead of the Greater Aurbis, I believe that the series of games revolves around his actually achieving that state of CHIM instead of learning lessons or morals from some sort of selflessness on his part.

May JHUNAL bless and guide your studies, for I remain...


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

He failed so that others would know how not to.

His "death" (which didn't even really happen) was both a failure of his as well as a way to enable others to succeed (his divine spark was required to complete Mundus, which is required for Shezarr's path to the final subgradient to be realized).

I still don't totally get what you mean, but if I'm understanding you correctly then you are right. It is pretty well established too.

On the subject of CHIM, let me say AGAIN that there is a difference between CHIM and the final subgradient. People seem to have been constantly confusing them from day one, and it peeves me. Before you sit down and type "CHIM", ask yourself: Am I referring to the goal or the method of reaching that goal? If you are referring to the goal itself, that's not CHIM. CHIM is one of many ways of reaching the final subgradient. Its not the only way. You can fail at CHIM and still achieve the final subgradient.

:blink:

summarize

Lorkhan evaporated by Zero-Sum? If that's what you meant, it'll take some convincing.

TWM, that post is [Edit; no longer] a clusterf**k.





For Lorkhan to have succeeded, he would have needed to suppress forever his enantiomorphic double, crushing an interplay by force. 11 needed to become 1. Chim may well have been impossible for him, for this reason.

Vivec has a symbolic double as well, himself, mortal Vehk. In achieving the tower he suppresses his own mirror image, which was only possible because it is a symbolic act, not the actual destruction of an enantiomorph.

Eh?

What was vehicle of the Tribunal, then?

ARGGG!

CHIM is not a state of being. It is an orientation, a state of mind perhaps, NOT a state of being.

It doesn't seem to be fully adding up in my mind, but this was the thought process: How do you fail at CHIM. You can not understand it, but Vehk fixes this, thankee sai. Or you could miss the I and zerosum. What happens when you zerosum? You dissapear, Leave the universe. Die. What did Lorkhan do? Die.

Oh no, I know that; I typed like that out of mere laziness. I was focused on trying to get my point across and not necessarily semantics.

I regard "he failed so that you might know how not to" as one of Vivec's more spin-tastic pronouncements. It is a self-serving interpretation of Lorkhan's actions that perhaps serves to increase Vivec's legitimacy, which is what the sermons plug away at. Perhaps Lorkhan flat-out failed and simply left his selfish essence behind as a platform for others. Leaving the ladder hanging down for others may still serve his interests, if you believe that he is rebuilding himself.

But by and large, his motives are a question of theological interpretation.

Brian: Lorkhan didn't leave or sum-die. He's anchoring Nirn and orbiting it simultaneously. He died like a mortal, and his incarnations are bouncing around in the dreamsleave, reappearing on Nirn like a whack-a-mole game.

Zero Sum is abdicating your place in myth and interplay and creation. It's almost a return to PSJJ in itlsef, but devoid of meaning and who knows what the parcel of godhead thought synapses you are made up of will be used for afterwards. Zero Sum is beyond mortal death, but in an impure way.

Don't interpret this too tightly. If Lorkhan sought Chim and was cut down before Zero Hour, he still failed. Failure doesn't mean Zero Sum, because it can't. It's not that elegant, which should be clear, when you see the mess Lorkhan leaves behind, avatars and selfishness and body parts and all.

Alrighty then.....

Lorkhan said [censored] CHIM because it means that he will lose his identity. Nice quandry, right? Kinda like wanting to go swimming but not wanting to get wet. So, he makes his own Wheel by using some of the "pieces" of the other Aedra and gets svcked right it...because he gave a piece as well, his Heart. Now he's died. Bye bye bigger Wheel.

Now he just needs to return to some kind of "first brush" of....something. But what is "brushing" in this little world of his. Lorkhan would have to be split in two and THEN reunite. Well, are their two halves to Lorkhan? Yep, the moons...and the Aka/Shor situation.

But that, of course, means a fiery death for all those little mortals down there. But wait...what exactly ARE those little mortals? They are all that's left of the Aedra, the "aspects", and when they die off, the Aedra themselves die off.

Those Aedra must be crappin' their pants right about now, especially since Lorkhan's Heart has been released, Towers have fallen, etc.

Perhaps Landfall might be something akin to Lorkhan's return to Memory in himself?

Is that any better guys?


___TWM

A state of mind is a state of being, though. How can it not be. Semantically, they are almost the same.

Though, the WM didn't say explicitly CHIM was a state of being, or mind, simply a state of CHIM. In my limited understanding so far, CHIM is a state that goes beyond both mind and being.

If you can even call it that, considering they didn't "have" CHIM (don't shoot me, Mortazo. I'm just trying to make a point) besides V'vehk, it was the Heart.

Those who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg. ... At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#7)

those who CAN

Chim can be called the state of grace necessary to stand athwart PSJJ and shout "Aye!"

I think this is Mortazo's angle, and it's an elegant one. It's backed up by Many Headed Talos and the Trial of Vivec. These characters aren't dwelling within the tower, but perhaps Talos visited once or twice, long enough to change a climate (though I still largely reject this) and Vivec sure did when he [censored][d] Azura.


The entire point of CHIM is keeping your identity. Are you suggesting that his quest was to reunite himself with his double and create Aka/Lor?
I see him as ascending as a himself alone, part of an enantiomorph rising above its double and the rest of Aurbis besides.

The Crowned Tower that is CHIM can be lost with the "slightest break in concentration." Therefore, I would say that knowing CHIM involves the "right-thinking" and concentration necessary to keep the Tower together. Seeing the Tower is the state one thing, but residing within the Tower is definitely a state of being.

EDIT: I see Lorkhan getting rid of his double that is Akatosh. Vehk mentions that having no double is very important, and I think that Lorkhan did a good job of getting rid of Akatosh in TES IV, especially since his dupe, Dagon, probably didn't know that "the Greedy Man" had it planned that way all along.

HAH. Gotta love that good ol' fashioned TES mind****ing! :celebration:



The Six Paths to Heaven by Violence, I presume?

Since I brought that up, are there any real records of anyone achieving the more "unpopular" and unknown ones, such as the Scarab that Transforms Into the New Man or the Prolix Tower (if that's just "seeing the Tower," then just shoot me now... :facepalm: ) that I'm probably not recognizing?

I guess an anology is in order:

Let's say our "goal" is to go to the store. Most people don't know where the store is. Sadly they can't go there. When you achieve CHIM you achieve the state of knowing where the store is beacuse you explored a while until you found it. Its one way of being able to go tot he store. There are other ways. You can use a GPS device, perhaps we'll compare that to the Numidium. There's a list of ways to "get tot he store" if you will, with CHIm being just one.





Right, although I find "state of grace" a little misleading beacuse it may imply petition to a higher power which isn't necessarily true.

At the risk of epically noobifying this thread, why is Vehk is only one? (Attaining CHIM, that is) Ayem and Seht equally shared the ineffable sense of godhood, and were liberated from the laws of all divine worlds. Seht probably moreso than Vehk.

Extraordinary awareness and perception of a higher power would be necessary. knowing God, creation, and your place in it. But certainly not petition as you use that knowledge to punch the cosmos in the gut and stand it on its head.

Edit: And by your way of thinking, it is PSJJ that is the goal: a name for the first brush of Anu and Padomay. Is this just a more concise description of mantling the Godhead, dwelling in the Tower and encompassing a whole world of you? The explanations (to exist forever beyond antithesis or trouble... beyond mortal death) seem more elaborate than the simple term for a level of gradient. PSJJ

Agreed, and the anology is well taken. To go further, and I may be wrong, but knowing where the store is "viewing the Tower", which is a part of, but not completely CHIM.

CHIM requires for the Tower to be resided in as well. Once a person knows where the store is and then actually goes there, then CHIM is achieved.

Forgetting or leaving loses CHIM.

So whether it is a state of mind, state of being, state of grace, or whatever, I assume that whatever state we are talking about, we can agree that it involves both knowledge and action upon that knowledge.


___TWM