Is there some way that the destruction of Nirn would restore immortality to the aedra? Only reason I can think of that would make Akatosh turn on the world.

Sure, he's dead. But he's also a god, so that makes your mortal understanding of the word somewhat lacking. He's a dead god that has had dozens of avatars over the years, including some of the most importan figures in the history of mankind, King Wulfharth and Pelinal Whitestrake. And he's still worshiped by the Dark Brotherhood in the form of Sithis, was revered by the Tribunal faithful by the name of Scarab, in Cyrodiil by the name of Shezzar and the Nords still look to their father Shor. It doesn't matter how dead he is if people still believe in him and after all, Nirn's very existence depends on his spirit that fell to earth while his corpse remained above.


Your premise is faulty. Akatosh invented time, the biggest and most important change ever to befall the universe. The time god Akatosh defends Nirn. The time god Alduin eats it because time is a cycle and a new cycle is about to start. He does this because the Nords are mortal and see time as an enemy that will devour them all in the end.


What evidence do you have to the contrary? The sun and stars are portals, or gaps torn in the fabric of Oblivion when spirits fled Nirn to reach Aetherius. You have been to Oblivion with your own two feet, and you can see it in every night sky. The other Aedra are up there too, as planets, because that's what a god looks like to mortal eyes. The gods are worlds, and Lorkhan's is dead and cratered because he chose to create Nirn and was punished for it. During the Dragon Breaks, when Akatosh's imposition of linear time is disrupted, you can see the constellations change as forgotten spirits beyond our ken rush through the cosmos, suddenly free to explore the Mundus until order is restored. You really think that shooting stars and gas bubbles is all that's up there?

True, I forgot that the altmer perceived them as Possibility and limitation. My bad.

I still don't believe that he is Alduin and Alduin could be some dark aspect created when Nirn was created. We will find out in Skyrim. For all we know, Alduin could be Peryite, we just don't know. The only bit of lore that even ties Alduin to Akatosh is the loose association between the two by a mortal writer trying to make ties between the pantheons of the different races. The writer even points out that Alduin and Akatosh have nothing in common except the fact that they are dragons.



They weren't avatars, they were reincarnations, big difference.



Akatosh didn't invent time. He was the first spirit born from Anu, thus he found it to be his charge to watch over time as he was the first spirit. Time was not his creation.

I'd like to add to this in saying that "dead" from the perspective of a god is somewhat faulty. Every one of the Nine has been referred to as "dead" at one point or another in various texts, and yet they still send Avatars (Wulf, the Prophet in KOTN, the various avatars you see in Morrowind), bless mortals, can be incarnated as (Pelinal-the-Shezarrine) and can even be mantled (Talos, etc). Diminished is perhaps a better word for our understanding, but they are, even Lorkhan, still very much present in their own ways; just not entirely in the obvious way that a Daedra Prince might be.

It could be (this is just conjecture) that all true Dragonborn are incarnates of some aspect of Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan, to tie this into how Lorkhan might be present in Skyrim.

I highly doubt that because if destroying Nirn would restore their immortality, why wouldn't they have done it when they killed Lorkhan after finding out what it did to them.

Maybe he couldn't. Or he may have some other motivation, yet unknown to us.

I'm pretty sure Alduin is Akatosh is Auri-El, all things considered. Every early creation myth has him ultimately opposed to the existence of Mundus. The nice Imperial version only exists for political reasons.

Because they are diminished, and have been for some time. Lorkhan tricked them into giving them significant portions of themselves to create the Mundus. The Nine cannot affect the Mundus in the direct, sweeping ways that the Daedra can; but they are still very much aware and present in smaller, less obvious ways.

Furthermore, as the beliefs of mortals fuel their power, it could be that they've, by this point in the continuity, regained enough presence to actually do something about their situation now.

But TES is also a bit on the clap your hands and it's a god system. so Akatosh, while generated as a political compromise, is just as real as Alduin and Auri-El.

Because belief is power. What mortals perceive becomes truth.

Perhaps certain criteria had to be met first. The pictures on the wall. For some reason, it may be that until those events occurred, the Aedra were unable to restore their immortality. The destruction of Nirn may be the final step. This would explain why Akatosh has worked to preserve the world, up until this point.

Note I'm only speculating here, and I'm by no means a lore buff

My point exactly, the nine have never physically manifested themselves on Nirn since the Dawn Era. People need to realize that the nine are not like typical gods, they LOST their immortality. When they die, they don't do what normal gods do, they don't move to the god state where they repair themselves and resurrect, if they die, their spirits move into the dreamsleeve, thus meaning they died. That is why they were pissed enough at Lorkhan to kill him. The main reason the nine don't affect the world is because they are agents of Stasis, they try to preserve what is and the Daedric Princes meddle in the world constantly because they are agents of change.

We really, really do. And if it helps, then yes, do think of Alduin as an aspect of Akatosh. Because taking part in creation took a terrible toll on the Aedric et'ada and rendered them subject to mortal ideas. Listen, time was not linear before Akatosh imposed linear time on young Nirn. Therefore, different races had different experiences and view of different spirits. This enabled multiple realities to exist in the same place. When Akatosh made time suddenly linear, all these competing ideas had to fit within one timeline. So suddenly there was more than one dragon. Alduin isn't a daedra, and especially not one so boring as Peryit, don't be silly. And if you find yourself thinking too hard, realize that Alduin, Auriel and Akatosh all sound similar, are all dragons, are all gods of time. Just accept the obvious.


Nothing in common! That's because they are opposites, representatives of the opposite spiritual worldviews of men and elves. You're really just not accomplished or widely-read enough to go around saying what is or isn't in lore. There is an entire field of study for this sort of thing, and it is your business if you want to hamstring yourself by ignoring the most helpful texts, but then you should include disclaimers when for the benefits of this young and impressionable forum.

Big difference, maybe, but not really so important. Lorkhan has had a hell of a lot more impact on the mortal world than Dibella recently. And that should get him a more nuanced characterization than 'dead.'




Except for the myths that say he did invent time, and that it helped impose a bit of order on the universe already teeming with spirits. You can't just grab a text of the shelf and take it literally. We can only know what happened 'back then' by examining the commonalities between various myths. And one of those myths will tell you that the Aedra are not purely Anuic, which should be obvious because purely Anuic things are simply ball of inert energy that can't do anything at all.


If a god can't manifest physically (and the Nine have sent down physical avatars), how the heck do you kill it? No Aedric Divine has ever been killed, except for the sort of death they all died when they sacrificed themselves to create Nirn, so who knows how exactly it would work.

And you're being very unfair to the Aedra. How do you get off calling them agents of stasis when they took part in the most radical, unprecedented, impossible endeavor the space-time continuum has ever seen, the creation of Nirn? Where was the stasis in that? Now that the world is here and they are bound to it, of course they will try to preserve it. They will even try to preserve it against the rogue aspect of Time deciding that Time Is Up.

Well it has been made clear that none of the events in the past games (save perhaps the Oblivion Crisis) had no effect on each other and didn't cause the return of Alduin. They were just events that would herald his return, it didn't have any hand in his return. It was a nice idea though.

@DarthRavanger As for Auriel and Akatosh, it has been clearly stated in lore that Auriel was actually Akatosh, however, Alduin is different. Auriel and Akatosh are the exact same in every way except Auriel is represented by an eagle, Alduin is different because he has nothing in common with Akatosh other than being a dragon.

There's really very little "clearly stated in lore" in Elder Scrolls lore in the first place. An important thing to consider (It is, in fact, the policy of Bethesda as for this to be so) is that all lore-sources are from a character or otherwise in-game source. There is no direct "word of god", like there is in other things. All we have, and all we will ever get, are anecdotal or otherwise first-person accounts from people inside the continuity itself, and therefore, all in-game sources are, when you get down to it, equally valid and equally subject to error or misinterpretation.

So we can't simply pull a detail out of one document and proclaim that this is how things are. If you look across the whole of lore and try to form a gestalt opinion of what Alduin is, it is both reasonable and probable that he is an aspect of Akatosh, who is an aspect of Auri-El, who is an aspect of Alduin. Three perspectives (and many others) on one thing.

Here's the description of Alduin in Varieties of Faith, which as far as I can tell is the most extensive in the in-game lore:



And in the Five Songs of King Wulfharth, he's referred to as "Alduin Time-Eater"

So, to the Nords, Alduin is:

- A dragon (check)
- An important creator deity (check)
- A god with power over time (check)

He's got a lot more in common with Auri-El then just "being a dragon."

Once again, not quite. Auriel is an elven god. Aldermi religious dogma tells that the creation of the world robbed the spirits and their descendants of the immortality and divinity. And they're largely correct.

Auriel's followers seek to transcend existence and would not be adverse to the ending of the world. Akatosh and Auriel are certainly not synonymous. Akatosh the Cyrodilic deity is really more of an adoption of Auriel with different attributes and motives. Auriel promises transcendence and immortality, while Akatosh makes Covenants to stabilize reality. They are not in perfect harmony. You should be able to see the connection between the elves and Auriel, with their oppositional, nihilstic view of the Mundus, and the Nords, with their Alduin that seeks to devour the world. Alduin is Auriel as the Nords see him, for the origin of these different spirits is in the wars fought between cultures during the Dawn Era.

Who is Kyne? She is not merely Kynareth by another name. It is plain to see that Kyne has a totally different personality and role in the pantheon. Yet both versions of this gods can be seen to act according to their different identities. You act like Alduin being Akatosh in unprecedented. It's not. Many, many gods have different cultural versions that are made real by the intangible, magical nature of Mundus. You just have to look deeper. All religions include a version of Akatosh and a version of Lorkhan. Who is the Nordic Akatosh if not Alduin?

We don't "really, really know". Most people quote "The seven fights of the Aldudagga" and other obscure texts that are not actually lore in TES at this time. The only evidence that Alduin has anything in common with Akatosh is the book that loosely associates them.



Yes, some myths say he invented time, but chronicled history states that time existed with padomay and Anu and Akatosh, being the first spirit born, took up the mantle of keeping time in stasis, thus being linear. The reason why when time splinters, it is called a dragon break, is because multiple realities happen instantaneously and all events must happen simultaneously on this one plane of linear time so every event happens at once and all results exist in the same world. Thus is why there were two Mannimarcos in existence in Oblivion. The weakened Mannimarco you kill and the Mannimarco in the sky that is the "Shade of the Revenant" or how the Underking still lives because in one reality he was destroyed when he reformed with the mantella and in the same reality he never got the mantella back so he never died.

And that Auriel was tricked into creating Nirn, while Akatosh was a more willing participant, and Akatosh didn't regret its creation, while Auriel did.


And being the god of time. The key difference being that Alduin is a god of cyclical time, while Akatosh (and Auriel) is a god of linear time.

Look, I'm just saying, when Alduin and Akatosh are both dragons, both gods of time, both creator deities, and both anti-Mundus, it's not exactly a stretch to say that Alduin is the Nordic version of Auri-El.

Actually that is not true.
The events of Morrowind were instrumental in the Oblivion crisis.
Dagon could not pierce the veil and enter Mundus while the red tower stood.

I dont think there is anything to be gained by pointing at lore and then saying its not lore, because lore doesnt look like that.
You cant just pick and mix things only to prove your own views and ignore all evidence to the contrary, or declare it not lore.

And Alduin might not be able to do what he's about to do if, during the Oblivion Crisis, Akatosh's covenant with Alessia wasn't broken. Tamriel is essentially protected on Akatosh's good will alone now; a will of somebody who does not, necessarily, condone the Mundus even existing.

The circumstances in Morrowind were necessary for Oblivion to happen, which were apparently necessary for what's happening in Skyrim. And it's Akatosh's preservation of continuity not only in these events, but in the events of Daggerfall, that allow all of this to happen in the first place.

Alduin's return could very well have been a very calculated effort on the part of the Aedra; millennium of deceiving mortals to believe in them; to worship them, so that they might be freed once again.

Yeah, I think I'll listen to the people who wrote and write the lore, rather than your tunnel vision anolysis. There is plenty of evidence there for you even while you ignore the most important material.



Full stop.

Did you just say chronicled history? Chronicled history of a period before humanity existed? Before pens and ink existed? Before time was linear? Boy, I want to talk to this historian. Where's your source for this one? All the creation stories run together in your mind after a while. I'd recommend basing your understanding on the Monomyth.

Akatosh is the God of Time. Time as we know it is his imposition. When we speak of time, we speak of our conception of it and that is his invention. So time existed, sure, but it was neither linear nor uniform, and all that happened then is beyond our ken.

I have a question. Who worshiped Akatosh in the days before he was invented in the synthesis of the Nordic and Ayleid pantheons by Alessia? Back then, wasn't there just Alduin and Auriel? (And whatever the Redguards and indigenous tribes called him.)


Once again, if the Covenant was broken, what keeps Dagon out?

Also not lore.



This is just the common point of view of elves. The elves are angry they lost their immortality so they see the creation of Mundus as "Lorkhan's trickery" to steal their immortality away.

There is nowhere that says Alduin is the god of cyclical time and there is only known to be linear time.

Yes it is.
Its lore because lore masters say its lore. Its lore because it fits. Its lore because its written by game developers specifically to explain things.
This is what I mean by pointing at lore and declaring it not lore.
Simply because it doesnt fit your ideas.

If you want to go against things that are established and undermine them, fine.
But I think you should then place a caveat under your posts to explain that this is not the commonly held view, and only your own speculation.

And Auri-El also saw the creation of Mundus as "Lorkhan's trickery." What, do you think he had Lorkhan's heart torn out as favor?

Alduin isn't ever explicitly called a "god of time," but he's definitely associated with it.