I'm not ignoring any of the REAL lore. The lore your talking about is not actual lore, it is just the musings of Kirkbride on the Imperial Library, not actual established lore.



I can agree with this, but I was saying he didn't truly create time, time existed with Padomay and Anu before that of Akatosh.



Wouldn't you believe it was trickery if Lorkhan convinced you to help create Mundus and then you lose your power to do it? I would.

For that matter, the Cyrodiilic creation myth has Auri-El as an anti-Mundus, brooding Elven god, and Akatosh as an entirely separate pro-Mundus god. So they're even more separate then Auri-El and Alduin are!



That's the point. Auri-El does not think Mundus is a good thing.

It's lore if we treat it like lore, because it makes sense, it's better written, Bethesda isn't going to stop us and-- oh right, Oblivion's plot makes absolutely zero sense without it.

If you don't accept the veracity of the Nu-Mantia Intercept document, there is no amount of quibbling, apologism and bull-[censored] on the face of the planet to explain in any detail how the events of Oblivion make any sense at all. So please, get with the program or admit that you're posting with half a deck and leave us alone.


The 'common view of elves' has a powerful influence on the way their gods act and manifest themselves.

Duh, you just mentioned the Dragon Break. Non-linear time occurs during Dragon Breaks.
The Nords believe in cyclical time. If you really believe that Michael Kirkbride just happened to be writing about Nordic spirituality and mythology A YEAR before a game set in Skyrim was announced, and that he doesn't have an important role in helping to create and define the lore Skyrim's people, you are very foolish. It's going to be lore. Or I hope it will be lore, because last time around, Kirkbride's document had to explain the idiocy that was the plot of the lore-breaking MQ, and anyone who doesn't accept it is basically embracing total ignorance.

The Covenant, symbolized by the Amulet of Kings, was broken in that very instant the Amulet was shattered. No longer do we have a Nine-sanctioned Empire, with a divine right to rulership over Tamriel, to protect the Mundus any longer. This didn't matter during the Interregnum between Alessia and Reman, or Reman and the Septims, because other Towers stood. It matters now.

It could be said that the statue of Akatosh, which is a new symbol of something that nobody in Tamriel seems to quite understand yet, is a Tower in and of itself now. But what binds it? Certainly not an agreement to maintain an Empire that promotes the worship of the Nine (And remember, belief is power). That Empire collapses a short time after the Oblivion crisis, as evidenced in the Infernal City. That Covenant no longer exists; or can exist. There is no bargain.

So what, do you ask, maintains the status quo until events align? Akatosh and his goodwill alone, bound by no agreement to mortals. While I'd not deign to descend into the thoughts of a god, I'd imagine that this goodwill isn't merely out of benevolence, but convenience.

And with, now that events have aligned, Alduin the World Eater, an aspect of himself returning to make things as they once were; in a way that, pre-breaking-of-the-Covenant, shouldn't be possible, it would seem that goodwill has run out.

And here we come to the crux of the clash. You dont think imperial library is lore. Your view of lore is seemingly only things that have appeared in-game.
This means that you probably wont even accept the last report to Trebonius, even though nothing in it hasnt been explicitly stated or suggested in the games.

And this is where we will have to set the difference. According to game developers and lore masters, those texts are indeed lore.
I think that overrides your opinion.
I have absolutely no problem with a differing opinion, but I do get kind of irked at your habit to inforce your own views by trying to ignore and downplay established views, its like youre wearing blinds.

In his defense, "I like it more," is generally not considered a compelling argument for something's canonicity.

I like RPGs more than racing games and I like TES more than Halo. None of this is real, so in the end, "I like it more" is all that we have. I am also confident that most educated people will agree that the material written by Michael Kirkbride exhibits, generally speaking, a superior command of the English language and a deeper view of the fantasy genre while conveying a more complex message.


The Covenant, yes. The Oversoul of Emperors and the spiritual lineage of Alessia is gone.


Whatever it is, and whatever Oblivion neglected to explain it to be, it keeps the Daedra out. It is pretty clearly an agreement between Akatosh and Martin, or at least a reward for his faith and sacrifice. It looks like a bargain to me, a new Covenant. It's just not one that comes with refills, privileging a certain dynasty. But at least we still have Akatosh's favor and the intent to preserve the world. The terms of the contract have been renegotiated, but this has implications for the Empire and Cyrodiil rather than all reality, I think.

It's not like Akatosh was strictly obligated before, and I don't think he has changed his mind about Nirn and his continued existence being a good thing. He's an Aedra, not a capricious Daedra, and rather predictable. I wouldn't characterize his mind as something ineffable and superior. Try insane and sub-human.

I very much doubt that. The player character is made Dragonborn. Somebody up there still likes us. And I say it is still to early to call what allows Alduin's return, if anything does at all.

No, Michael Kirkbride is not a developer. He hasn't been a developer since during Morrowind. He occasionally gets contracted to write lore for games but the "lore" that you guys keep quoting in other threads are just musings he rights for the Imperial Library. It has already been said by several developers that the only true lore is what makes it into the games. Thus the only true lore is what shows up in the games, not what someone who used to be a developer writes. Basically in your argument, the people in the lore forums that think the stories written by Kirkbride might fit doesn't make it lore. The problem I have with some of Kirkbride's writings that I won't even consider it to possibly make it into the game is because his version of gods is so over the top that I don't think Todd would want it in the game. All his versions of gods makes them beyond omnipotent. That makes gods boring and ungraspable and it is not needed to be so overly complicated to explain them when there is a much simpler explanation, one where gods are still incredibly powerful but still beings that can be affected by things.

Not that any of this matters, because it's pretty obvious that Alduin is Auri-El from in-game material alone.

There are two sentences in a book that says Alduin is the nordic variation of Akatosh. It's obviously just a loose association by the mortal in-game author. As todd has said before, the great thing about the lore of TES is that all the information is written by ingame authors who are actual people in the world, thus things can be misinterpreted by their views.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
I guess Ill stop trying to instill a modicum of sense in a head that doesnt want it.

Alduin is Akatosh is Auri-El and thats final.

That doesn't explain why you are so intent on misinterpreting them.


You really don't pay the slightest bit of attention, do you? Kirkbride's gods are the weakest and least-omnipotent of anything you'll find in fantasy. They can't even exist without mortal worship! A god named Shezarr outright disappeared because his people forgot him. You speak with such authority, from such ignorance. This stuff takes a lot of time and collaboration to master and you're nowhere near there yet. Acknowledge your limitations. I like to blab about my specialties but you don't hear me going on about Ebonarm and Khajiiti linguistics.

And Todd makes games. He doesn't write or even know much about lore. That's left to writers. And MK was writing stuff for Skyrim over a year before any of us knew it existed.

But on that same note, those are just about the only two sentences there are about Alduin in-game from those texts. It's pretty daft to assume that Bethesda would use the name Alduin, and then adhere to all the implications that those two bits of text say (AND, to note, apparently perfectly in line with your so-called "non-canon" obscure texts that expand on Alduin and his role considerably) in what we know of Skyrim so far, only to ignore it. Using Alduin as a plot element was a very calculated choice on their part, and it's not without taking a good look at not only what was written before, but what events have happened prior. If they didn't want those (numerous) implications to exist, they could have chosen any number of other names for dragons in the lore (like Tosh-Raka), or just made up a new one from scratch.

The evidence for Alduin being Akatosh being Auri-El is pretty ridiculously overwhelming, when you get down to it.

And that's why a lot of lore-buffs listen to what MK has to say, because not only have many of his contributions made it in-game (both pre and post Morrowind; he practically wrote Mankar Camoran's material in addition to his KOTN and Shivering Isles contributions), but because it enriches the existing lore, makes sense in relation to the rest of it, and most importantly makes the plots of the games, when viewed as a whole, make sense in the grand continuity. Because a lot of it doesn't. The fit is just too perfect to ignore. That does not mean it's true, nor what he says is gospel, because Elder Scrolls lore is always very careful about saying that a given thing is truth concrete, but it does mean it should be considered.

There's also that one sentence in The Five Songs of King Wulfharth. The one that says he has powers over time.

I mean, what exactly is the difference between Alduin and Auri-El? Not Akatosh, just Alduin and Auri-El.

This is the best thread in a long while.

Keep up the good work! I'm not good enough at lore to enter the debate but I find it a very good read. :thumbsup:

Well, his personality and methods, for two.

Akatosh is our frame of reference because of the games, but remember that he didn't exist in his current form until a certain point in history.

So if you're trying to wrap your head around Auriel/Alduin, just think about how Alduin is what Nords see when they look at Auriel, the god of their ancient enemies.

Do we actually know anything about Alduin's personality, or Auri-El's methods?

Whatever, I'm done trying to show actual lore evidence that it doesn't make sense. I really hope that Alduin isn't Akatosh so I can get on the lore forums in November and laugh. You can believe what you want from Kirkbride's writings that aren't actually lore until they actually exist in a game but I'll stay with actually interpreting REAL lore. We will see how it works out in Skyrim. And with that I http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/Soulece/SM1109Screw-You-Guys-Posters.jpg?t=1297710437



Last comment before I quit. Alduin svcked the life out of the nords making them age, it didn't say he warped time.



*sigh* putting more noncanonical lore into peoples heads. For those that aren't lore buffs, you can read it, it's an interesting read but it's not actual lore so don't take it as so.

This was kind of my point. Alduin and Auri-El are very clearly the same god, seen through the eyes of his enemies and followers, respectively, just like Lorkhan and Shor.

http://imperial-library.info/content/fight-one-eating-birth-dagon
Read those. I highly doubt an Altmeri deity would be so... funny.

Auriel isn't a big honking dragon trying to destroy the world. The Altmer say that he transcended the prison of the Mundus in order to show his followers the way. So it is a different path, although my yearlong hiatus from this stuff has robbed my memory of the specifics and the sources. I never did have the best grasp on the Altmer, but suffice to say, individualistic transcendence is something that Vivec was big on, as were the Dwemer.


Yeah. Vivec writes about how much he likes Lorkhan the Scarab, only Shor would have taken one look at him and ripped his pointy ears off his head and eaten them.

Sure, but "the way" could be "through my stomach."

Also, Irony: In a four page thread about Lorkhan, three of the pages are people talking about Akatosh.

I'm also not sure what to make of the Aldugagga. I think it might just be an effect of authorial voice.

And what is the primary factor for aging? The passage of time.

Lorkhan and Akatosh are inexorably linked. You can't talk about one without the other being relevant and important. This has major implications for Skyrim's plot.

Just to clarify a small issue that means a lot, Shor's heart was NOT destroyed during the events of Morrowind. No, the enchantments binding the heart were destroyed, allowing it to freely disappear wherever it wanted. Where it went, no one knows. It may or may not return back to Nirn. I may or may not have returned to Shor's body.

Or svcking the lifeforce out of someone, that tends to age people too. I'm not saying Kirkbride isn't a great writer. I enjoy his writings, but all of his writings that have to do with gods, he makes it so much more complicated than it needs to be. It's still complicated and interesting in it's basic form, but the way Kirkbride tries to represent them, it goes over the top sometimes.