Generally svcking the life-force out of somebody in a traditional sense would probably...just make them die. A Drain/Damage Health type thing. I think the aging thing is a very important part of the quotient there, because it implies that a manipulation of time itself was involved, which is wholly in Alduin's sphere.

Heck, we have Thu'um Dragon Shouts from dragons in Skyrim that have the ability to slow down time.

Actually, it seems to imply he made them younger.

But wouldn't that work against the fact that Alduin must be Akatosh? If altering time is within the power of the dragon language, then Alduin can manipulate time as you think he did without being Akatosh.

Unless Thu'um itself, as an ability, has power that manifests from Akatosh. You're...really stretching things there. If it has to do with time, it has to do with Akatosh/Auri-El/Alduin. The very concept does not exist without them making it so. It could be said that time is Akatosh.

...

Not... really?

I mean, the dragon language can control time, and the God of Time is depicted as a dragon. Is it possible that these two things are related, maybe?

It is nice to see lore being discussed like this outside of the lore forum.

So I'm stretching things and you guys are well within you limits to put to the theory as fact that Alduin is Akatosh trying to destroy the world based on the lack of lore? Okay...

Time is Akatosh's charge but just because something affects time doesn't mean it has to be Akatosh. I'm pretty sure the Numidium wasn't Akatosh and it caused a Dragon Break. Dragons aren't Akatosh, they are just spirits akin to Akatosh. So if their language can warp time and Alduin is basically their leader, then why can't a powerful dragon affect time and NOT be Akatosh? You claimed that I was trying too hard to to disprove Alduin/Akatosh yet you overlook the obvious to say that it must be because Kirkbride said so...

The Dragon Break was Akatosh stepping in and setting things to rights; sorting out the continuity. That was its whole point. Every single thing that has an effect on time is tied to Akatosh. It was his contribution to the Mundus; it is his sphere, and it is himself. Note that even the magic of Alteration can't do a thing about time.

You do realize that the tweets you said 'proved" that dev writings weren't lore didn't, in fact say that? "It depends" didn't change to "no" since that point unless I've gone blind. They are lore, so stop whining. It's just annoying at comical by turns. And how else would you suddenly make it so people grow, mature and die in six years instead of sixty?


That was a great "last post before you quit," BTW, but why do gods in a fantasy world need to be limited in their complexity to what certain fans are comfortable with? And it's not complicated at all. Where does having a god being effected by believers lose you, precisely? Where does it get more complicated than it needs to be when someone says "if you look at time one way, it's an eternal Thing in itself, but if you look at it another, it's a devourer of other Things?"

Alduin has been mentioned in in-game lore only twice. In one of those instances, he is described as being associated with time. In the other, he is explicitly said to be "the Nordic version of Akatosh." Alduin takes the same form as Auri-El, has the same portfolio as Auri-El, takes the same role in the creation of the world as Auri-El, and has the same attitude toward Lorkhan and the Mundus as Auri-El. Alduin is Auri-El, and therefore Akatosh. We aren't stretching, here, this is the default position, and the one that makes the most sense. The burden of proof is on you.

(and the "svcking out life force versus controlling time" argument falls apart when you consider that, first, he's referred to in the same paragraph as "Alduin Time-Eater," and, second, he makes the Nords younger, not older)

Akatosh had to step in because the power of the Numidium SPLINTERED TIME! Time existed before Akatosh, he just has charge over it to keep it in stasis, the aspect he was born from. Just because alteration doesn't have effect over time, the dragon language is supposed to be more powerful than other magic. There is no magic that lets you spontaneously teleport either but the dragon language can warp time and space because it is so powerful.



I never contested that Alduin was mentioned in lore and I even pointed out that it was said that he was the nordic variation of Akatosh. I also said that was a loose association given by a mortal from that was writing a book trying to compare the different pantheons of the races. Basically in context he was drawing lines. I'll leave you at....

No..
Its only you that states its not lore. So only from your point of view its lack of lore.

The majority of people here have accepted those things you consider uncanonical as lore.
So, it is generally accepted as lore.

Its fine to have a conflicting opinion. But its folly to the degree of von Danicken to declare established and accepted lore isnt. You should state: lack of lore according to my theories.

Numidium splintered time because it was a creation of the Dwemer, who were attempting to build their own god in the myth-pattern of Lorkhan, who is opposed to Akatosh Because of this, it was well within its ability to do so, and only Lorkhan's counterpart, Akatosh could step in and set his brother's meddling to rights.

Also, the reason Alteration can't affect Time is because all magic comes from the radiance of Magnus. Thu'um does not, and thus is not magic in the traditional, academic sense.

Mark/Recall. Divine Intervention. Almsivi Intervention. Propylon Chambers. Mages' Guild Guides. Fast Travel.

...this is apropos of nothing, really, I just thought that was funny.

Also, can we drop the argument about whether or not the developer writings are lore? Arguments about what is and is not canon are inherently unresolvable short of an official canon policy (which, as far as I know, Bethesda doesn't have) and when they're not even relevant to the subject at hand (since Sleign is wrong even if we only consider in-game lore) it just gets silly.

You have a fractured view of what makes lore. Just because a bunch of people on a lore forum believe it is lore doesn't make it such. Some people believe that Darth Maul survived his encounter with Obi-wan on Naboo and came back with cybernetic legs to attack him on Tatooine. That is not lore just because some people like it and say it is, it's not canon because the person/people that decide what is canon is the owners of the IP and George Lucas shot that down saying it wasn't real and BGS has already said if it doesn't appear as lore in the games, it is not lore. Just because you like it doesn't make it lore.



None of which is in the lore except those that use portals. Portals are supported by lore, not spontaneous teleportation by mortals such as Mark/recall, divine intervention and so on. Also, not sure what you mean by Fast Travel because Fast Travel is walking, not teleporting.

Excuse me, but I think youll find that in science, it is always the majority that decides.
History is what historians say it is.
Im old enough to remember that historians stated Troy was a myth, invented by Homer.
And then it was found. And after a few years the consensus changed.

No.
Lore is what the majority says it is. Until it is disproven, and then after some inertia it will still be what the majority says it is, only it will have changed.

Uh, Mark/Recall, Divine/Almsivi Intervention, and Guild Guides were all present in vanilla Morrowind, not only as mechanics but referenced in various books. You can't not take a what's-in-the-game-is-lore-and-nothing-else stance without acknowledging that. The out of lore reason these weren't in Oblivion is because fast travel as a game mechanic made them superfluous. The in-game reason was Traven's messing around with the policies of the Mage's Guild (such as the Teleportation Act).

Wait. What? Akatosh was the first spirit born and also the first spirit born of Anu. Lorkhan was the first spirit formed from Padomay. You are going over the top with that. The numidium wasn't Lorkhan, it was supposed to be a resurrection of him, which was found to be a failure. I would be more inclined to believe it if it had Lorkhan's heart in it but it had the Mantella in it. Akatosh had to step in because the massive power of the numidium is what splintered time, not Lorkhan....

Okay, wait, are you saying the games aren't canon, now? Because that's just silly.

Also, Fast Travel is an abstraction. It could be anything.

It would be funny, if we hadnt had this very same thing pop up before.
It was previously explained those spells existed, and then it was brought up that thats in-game, not in-lore.

This was countered by: Read the Poison Song.
And I thought it was settled with that.

Alas, it crops up once again.

Teleportation is an established part of ES lore, both in in-game mechanics and in in-game lore.
Deal.

Why does this even need to be argued? If something is actually in the game, then yes, of course it's lore.

I mean, I don't think there are any books about, say, Fargoth anywhere. Does that mean he doesn't exist?

What was powering the Numidium isn't quite as important as what it is. It, and what it can do, was made in the divine image of Lorkhan; not physically but mythically. It was, by no means, a failed creation. It simply was never used by the Dwemer. What it did when powered by the Mantella was only a hint of what it could have done when hooked up to Lorkhan's heart. (Tiber used it to crush the Aldmeri Dominion and unite what of Tamriel had not been united yet simultaneously, and overwhelmingly, even so.)

And being a Lorkhan-patterened giant robot of destruction, it's reasonable to infer that, even when not at its full potential, it in fact, mantled Lorkhan. It was engineered to mantle Lorkhan.

It walked like Lorkhan until Lorkhan walked like it.

I don't know why any of this needs to be argued. Sleign is basically saying that he doesn't like parts of the mythic lore and therefore is grasping at straws to make it non-canon. I am saying that since his only "proof" of that was a tweet that said "it depends" in response to asking if the developer texts were lore that he should just stop whining and ignore it rather than get militant at people who want some fantasy in their fantasy and depth in their mythologies.

It's likely more accurate to say the dev texts are lore unless proven otherwise, since much of the lore was written in advance.

Not sure what you mean by "Where does having a god being effected by believers lose you, precisely?" I was the one that made it evident that the worshippers give the nine divines their power. Please read the thread instead of flaming me because the lore you base your "truths" on aren't actually canonical.



No, not saying that it isn't part of the lore because I don't like it, I'm saying it's not part of the lore because well...it's not part of the lore. It has been said before that if the lore doesn't show up in the game, then it doesn't exist until it does. If "The seven fights of the Aldudagga" shows up in the game or any of the other myriad of "lore" you quote does, then yes, it's canonical. Otherwise it isn't and it's just you wanting to believe it is.

Ok, so the world changed from being flat to a sphere as people started to believe it was a sphere. Okay, that makes sense...