Interesting. So some Gods either did not want to create a mortal plane or just didn't want to lose their powers by having created one, so they were mad at Lorkhan?

Why is Yffre so important? I forget who/what Yffre is...

Couldn't another point of view be that Lorkhan "adopted" men and the Aedra "adopted" mer?

That is interesting that though "their god" was defeated, men still became dominant. Then again, in the Christian religion, Christ became victorious through dying, so this could be a similar situation.

Can you point me to where the Precursor and Yffre are referenced? That is intriguing!

I found alot of info in http://www.imperial-library.info/races/nord.shtml Search the different races, it has alot of good and helpful information.

Find the Imperial Library through the ES homepage - Links / Fan sites ... then search. Reason I am cautious here is that some of this came from other players ... and some from the books I read.

There is stuff that I have never read from Arena, Daggerfall, Battlespire and Oblivion itself, plus new bits (some from Devs in this Forum and the Imperial Library and it all keeps getting retroactively changed)

I go get link for your first TIL visit: (hmm - search for references to Yffre and Jephre drew a blank at TIL - but here:


http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/valenwood.shtml
PgtE 3rd edition
The Wild Remain


If you read a Dance in the Fire then there are references there to the Green Pact - a treaty between the Bosmer and Yffre that gave the Bosmer Yfrre's protection and patronage in return for the Bosmer's agreement not to eat the plantlife of Yffre's Forest - and there was more to it.

You will need to spend a fair amount of time to winkle out enough to begin to aussage your apetite for new Lore though.

Elhnofey
http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/abrasivenutarticle1.shtml
This is a link to Development of the Species
And has some content on early times

add in a section arrived at from bittergreen's link above:


And the references that they draws from ... etc

Hope you read the Monomyth - that highlights the differences between human and elven beliefs too. Really it is a very amorphous mess ... great fun

Psst. I heard you in the market for some awnsers.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtmlake care.

(the following post is made under the assumption that Lorkhan is an Aedra. also, SI spoilers ahead)

Alright, everybody knows that most of the 'gods' of TES are one of two groups: the "Aedra" and the "Daedra", with the former being more aligned to order, and the latter to chaos. However, Lorkhan seems to be more of an advent of change then order and stability, just as Jyggalag is the epitome of mindless, mechanical order, yet is a Daedra.

Now, where has Jyggalag been? Well, he's been unwillingly disguised as Sheogorath, possibly the changeyest Daedra of them all, and also described as the "sithis-shaped hole in the world." Well, Jyggalag was recently freed from the prison of Sheogorath ('nuff said about that for now).

Where am I going with this? Well, even though Sheogorath was pure madness, which can also be called chaos, there was still some order to him, if even unwillingly. Every thousand years or whatever he would become Jyggalag, Prince of Order once again, if only temporarily. Likewise, Lorkhan, the Aedra who loved change, was torn asunder, with his heart put on Mundus and his other parts as the moons, permanent and always 'there'. Even so, the moons constantly change, if only in visibility, bringing some manner of chaos and change to order.

However, Jyggalag has been set free, as I said before. The deity who seems the exact polar opposite of Lorkhan is once again out and about. In my mind, if Lorkhan's counterpart is around, at least some aspect of him can't be too far off. After all, you can't have something without a nothing to compare it to, so to speak. In order to define something, you must have the opposite thereof. Perhaps the previous incarnations of Lorkhan/Shor (like Pelinal, Tiber Septim, etc) all coincided with the Greymarch in the Shivering Isles? But, of course, that is just speculation.

Also, the moons are beginning to disappear, which I read somewhere and forget where. Holes are appearing in them through which stars can be seen. Not quite sure what that means. Maybe it is the exact opposite of what I said, and Jyggalag's permanent return means that Lorkhan is being erased.

Also, as one final note, a return to Sheogorath being the "sithis-shaped hole in the world." What would a hole shaped like 'Nothing' be? In my mind, that sound like it would be a blob of 'Something.'

Thank you all so much for your help and pointing me in the right direction! I haven't had a chance to read it all yet, but I have no doubt it will be illuminating.

And Moroni, thank you for putting the "SI spoilers" note there! I haven't finished the SI main quest yet (I know, I know...but I wanted to save it!), so thanks for not spoiling anything for me. However, it also means I can't read your post, and I'd really like to-- would it help if I told you how far I've gotten (so you can tell me if what you wrote will spoil later parts)?

--SI Spoiler!!--

I've finished the quest to light the Flame, and chosen which Flame to light (forget which one I did, though). But that's how far I've gotten-- am I safe to read your post? Thanks in advance.

Might be a good idea if you enjoyed the Main SI Quest first then read his post - but his ideas are sooo interesting that it's very hard for me not to comment thinks: no, no, self-restraint will prevail ... maybe ...

If Sheogorath has given you the big reveal about what his relationship with Jyggalag really is, then you should be alright. There will still be a spoiler about what happens at the end of the main quest though, so what I would suggest is that you just plow your way through the rest of the game, there shouldn't be too much left if I remember correctly.



Why, thank you, 1999. Maybe I should start a separate topic on the subject?

Makes sense to me -

I like too view him as a padomeic deity paradoxically containing a certain strain of anu. I like viewing through the dunmeri interpretation. Trickster yes, but a benevolent one offering nirn and mortal life as an escape from the prison of stasis.

lorkhan is a get of padomay. i don't even know if him being partially of anu is even true.

How often does the fact that lorkhan is the get of padomay being ignored?

Whenever people pay more attention to the conventional wisdom of Anu make order-aligned Aedra and Padomay makes chaotic Daedra. Alot of that (along with Aedra= Anu+Padomay and Daedra=Padomay) has got to be wrong, or outdated, or scrambled by SI.

This kind of discrepancy comes up so often I'm beginning to wonder if the best way to look at things is that when you have contact with Gods/Daedra/Oblivion your experience automatically changes according to the Province / place that you start from. And I guess you can add in the Lore to that.

That would jibe with the idea of the mundus being bashed together from various different things. Thus each Province has a more powerful effect on all within it's sway because it comes from a totally different 'aspect' of the Aurbis. Thus one might expect fundamental Laws, presumptions and dieties to show major differences not only governed by the inhabitants, but also by the nature/substance of the terrain itself. That might give a different perspective on the nature of the Wheel and the Towers too - thus one could truly say that each spoke of the Wheel is skewed in more than direction from it's neighbour. It may be better to see them asa spheres of influence that are permissive of certain things and are resistant to others.

I don't give much credit to SI as much as the fans scramble these discussions themselves.

Hmmmm, well, judging by some of these posts, I'd better go finish the SI main quest, because I still haven't the faintest clue who Jygallag (sp?) is. Something about order and crystals and stuff, but other than that...

You know, I was thinking about something else recently: in Morrowind, Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil (who I assume were mer?) all tapped Lorkhan's Heart and received god-like powers and immortality (distinct from invincibility, because they could be killed, but if they were not, they would live forever naturally-- is this correct?). Now, Lorkhan is all about transience and change; the Aedra would have continued existing, unchanging for all eternity (presumably) without Lorkhan's initiative and the creation of the ever-changing Mundus. So, if Lorkhan was the cause behind the Grey Maybe, the mortal plane where the cycle of life and death continually alters the shape of Nirn, why would tapping his Heart transform them from mortals to immortals, from transient to timeless beings?

Well as far as I can make out Lorkhan was unique in that he specifically has both Anu and Padomay in his court - so he represents a mixture of the two principals or a new direction. You might think of him as a bit of a rebel.

Also what he was changes according to which race/religion/faction is telling the tale - so it is easy to start out with one lot's view and end up with another lot's conclusions.

Best read all the books you have already discovered, read the UESP, read the stuff in the Imperial Library and then search out new deposits of Lore wherever they may be. Such as by playing Morrowind, Daggerfall and Arena ...

And if it still does not make sense, blame the Moth Priests for misreading the Elder Scrolls ... bit hard on them though as they are blind

I see him as the most human-like god. Trickery, and Deception, Silver-tongued. I see him as a stasis but complete change. If I tried picturing a human in his image, I see... a small dead pale child with black hair with his eyes open looking out on his creation and the treachery of his brethren. A twisted smile transfixed on his perfect face. Wearing ragged clothes he is thrown in a dungeon corner.

It would appear that the effects of the heart are a result of the Dwemer enchantments on it. And why Dagoth Ur lost his godhood when the enchantments were destroyed.

It ended up being found by the Ayleids and turned into the tower of ancestors. (j/k in case anyone is foolish enough to believe that)

Or... better yet!!! It turned into a war-fractal swarm foam that became a hero during the Allesian revolts. LOL. What could be a more formidable killing machine that the male organ of a dead god, I ask you?
That's how come pelinal got so touchy when someone referred to him as the Shezzarine. He may or may not have been divine, but he sure was a d**k. LOL.

Maggoty Vulture's handbag? :toughninja: