I've done quite a bit of research about Lorkhan, the deity that most fascinates me. The more research I've done into Elder Scrolls Lore (not just into Lorkhan, but lore in general), the more I've come to realize that Bethesda seems to allow for "the human element" in lore; in other words, they seem to allow that while (most) Imperials see things one way, (most) Argonians might see it another, and either could be right or neither could be right. It could be in the form of myths, propaganda, nationalism, etc., but they allow for alternate interpretations of the same subject.

So I was wondering: how do you see Lorkhan? Who is he/she? What did Lorkhan do? Give me a summary of how you see Lorkhan.

Please note that I'm not asking for the "official" or "lore-correct" answer, though your view may be considered one of those-- I'm just interested in your view.

What!?

I think of him as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Amber...

I've never read those novels...care to elaborate?

Authority figure and dysfunctional family.

Oberon was a (demon) noble from a realm called Chaos, which was comparable to Oblivion and/or whatever Oblivion and Nirn were created from.
Oberon creates the realm Amber (The Mortal Plane equivalent) against the wishes of the other nobles. That's how far or how near the resemblance goes.

I see him as an embodiment of human nature and self-contradiction. He is also the god of space and, in some way, madness. Lorkhan seems to be even more difficult and strange to understand compared to Daedra, who themselves are beyond anything mortals know. This is because he seems to be bound to his sphere, just like all the other et'Ada, but his sphere is kind of bigger.

My knowledge base here is limited, but the first thing that pops into my mind is coyote in Navajo mythology. A hugely imperfect comparison, I'm sure, but that's what comes to my mind. Maybe I've been reading too much Tony Hillerman.

See, that's very interesting...I mean, does anyone know what Lorkhan is the god of; I mean, what is his sphere? Is he an Aedra, or a Daedra, or something else?

I always thought of Lorkhan as a trickster, although on a much more grand scale. His tricks are why everything happens.

He is et'Ada, one of the first spirits. His sphere is perhaps Limitation. IMO it is also Doubt. In Altmeri creation myth, 'The Heart of the World' it is written that Lorkhan wanted a place for further self-reflection. Self-reflection is limitation, a tool to somehow limit and differentate yourself from the others. Mundus is a place of ultimate limitation - it is Lorkhan's realm just like Moonshadow is Azura's realm, for example. It is however, much more complicated than the other realms, because it is based on self-reflection of many Ideas(et'Adas), and its heart is the Heart of Lorkhan: the mystical symbol of Limitation and self-reflection.
An interesting thought came to my mind: perhaps, Lorkhan is the very first et'Ada, because the first thing Anu did was self-reflection. Or perhaps he was created only when Anu actually started to think about what self-reflection is.
Perhaps we should ask ourselves - why do we self-reflect? Then maybe we will understand.

Order is death; suffocating, unchanging certainty.

Lorkhan as the heathens call him, or more properly Shor is the embodiment of life, of change.

Shor created the mortal plane, he set about change. Unleashing chaos, confusing the known with the unknown he ushered in a new hopes and dreads, new joys and pains, where before there was none. Where before there was hardly anything at all.

The ancient Aldmer represent preservation, caution and that which attempts to refuse change. They revere whatever is called old; and watch with callous suspicion that which is named new.

But humans, especially that first brash race of Altmorians, were all together different. Explorers, conquerors, traders and warriors. Humans displayed just the sort of world changing vigor, that driven purpose and fleeting expediency that Shor pioneered (not excepting Padomay).

It was a match made in... Mundus?

Shor is adventure. The father of hope and the mother despair.
The original rebel without a cause.

The only thing that has ever really mattered.

I also got that impression, probably because some religions in Tamriel consider him a trickster, sort of like Loki in Norse mythology. But that may just be one perception of Lorkhan; to others, he is a champion of mortals because, after all, he is the one who got the Aedra to create Mundus.



Limitation? Doubt? Interesting...I'd never considered that. And certainly not self-reflection as a form of limitation. I always considered self-reflection as a source of bettering oneself (not to be confused with self-adoration, or inflated ego). But you have a point about Mundus being a place of limitation; mortality is certainly a limitation, and there are many others. On the other hand, other Aedra and Daedra are also limited, are they not? I'm not sure what to think about this.



Another very cool, and very intriguing perspective! So chaos is at the heart of Mundus? I guess that makes sense; after all, the Daedra Princes and their realms never change. The Daedra cannot be killed, the realms cannot be destroyed (actually, is that true about their realms?). Then again, if Padomay is also a pioneer of change, was Anu one of order and constancy? Or would Anu have changed things as well, just in a different way?

The demi-urge who was right.

Anu is the primal force of Order, and Padomay that of change/chaos.

If there was only Anu, there'd be nothing but Anu(order). Stillness, un-life, void. However if there was only Padomay, there'd only be Padomay(chaos). Raw meaningless chaos.

It is only through the interplay of both forces that life and purpose can be birthed. In a shell of order (Planet/Body) a flame of chaos is lit (life). Without the order that it takes to maintain shape and forum, there'd be no vassal to carry the chaos which burns like the life within.

Whenever there is too much chaos, or too much order, is when the world turns to ruin. The balance must be maintained. The People/Gods of power do not like chaos or change, because is disrupts and potentially harms their monopolies. The et'Ada were happy with the status quo, allowing the universe to slide into order..into unceasing drudgery. It was at this time that Shor became an agent of change. He convinced, even tricked, some of the et'Ada to do the absurd - to sacrifice of themselves, for something else.
And to that purpose they created Mundus in the Grey Maybe. By fertilizing themselves with the idea of change, they gave birth to Creation. The price they paid was steep though, to become the Earthbones...

Even then the old ideals of Order slipped into their thoughts, as the Aedra became the champions of the Aldmeri they again preached order, control, stasis. Subjection and status quo.

And once more Shor took upon himself the mantle of change; the defiance of the established. With his beloved humans he injected changes and chaos into the world. Short lived men with mighty aspirations and little time to waste, each one a fragment of Shor's purpose, his will.

Meanwhile the Daedra, the infertile and barren, the creation-less, watch from their pillars they refused to surrender. Demanding worshipers, craving followers from the children they never had. The Aedra might have turned upon poor Shor, they might have shattered him for his 'crimes'. But the gift he gave is the greatest of them all, and all those who did not bleed for it.. envy those who did.

(doublepost)

Indeed, Lorkhan himself considers self-reflection to be a tool for bettering yourself to eventually reach perfection. Some call it CHIM, but i think CHIM is only one of the many ways. Still, it is also limitation. I think i should take CHIM itself for example: you are one with the world, but you are still yourself. Being 'yourself' is limitation. Lorkhan doesn't want us to completely blend with the world, to dissapear; he wants us to have power.

^
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What he said...

Anyway, about limitations...

It is in this respect that we can call Lorkhan the space god. Space is the ultimate limitation... Form... Physical and tangeable. It is what we would call true existence, since we possess form, and therefore cannot touch that which does not. It is most definitely a limitation. It is, however, due to this limitation that we are able to sort the "real" from the "unreal". That is a form of self-reflection. Even when you look at something other than yourself, you see it through your eyes and formulate possible relationships said item might have with you. For instance, when you see shampoo, you know that you may wash your hair with it. You don't consider washing the hair of others, usually. This is true self-reflection. Not just looking deep within, but also looking at the superficial.

Lorkhan is Aka's other half. He is the space god. Space could possibly be considered a limitation of time. We judge time by space. The positions of the planets relative to each other and the amount of "space" between them allows us to determine time. Sequencing events is spacial, since you first have to have a backdrop or "space" for the events to take place within. Without an observer to measure the time, time itself could go on forever. The observer exists within a space. Therefore, space is the ultimate limitation, without which time itself is irrelevant.

As far as mortals are concerned, I think Alessia found a good candidate for Lorkhan's sphere, though it isn't universal.

I can't quote all of this, but it's all very interesting to me! Self-reflection as a limitation-- I never would've thought of it, but you guys definitely made your point, and it makes sense! So Lorkhan's sphere is space? Or even existence (as part of limitation)? Was that the case before he "tricked" the Aedra into creating Mundus, or was it only after he did so that he became greater? If so, did he do it in order to gain a greater sphere? Or did he do it because he was always an agent of change, and it was his nature to create a limited, changing plane?

I see Lorkhan as the child of BOTH Anu and Padomay = the thought of the one and substance of the other (you can replace those with your favorite metaphysical bits - I'm a leg man myself.)

I think all agree that Lorkan is about duality ... remind you of someone?


Speculatively
Other wise there is a powerfully resonant conection between Lorkhan and Vivec ... wondering if Lorkhan is what Vivec is truly foreshadowing/anticipating?

This might be relevant in the future as The Precursor declaims that Yffre is re-awakening - so how does that connect with Lorkhan given the death Lorkhan and the Deaths of the Gods that became Earthbones are part of the same conflict?

The heart is now free ... what next? Where is it all going? Could it be that the mundus actually needs Lorkan to survive. Is Vivec being drawn to become Lorkhan because Lorkan needs a new body?

Men now worship Aedra ... that's a turn-around is it not? What would they do if Lorkan returned?

If Lorkan is change how extensive wold that change be?

Would Lorkan's advent enliven or destroy the mundus?

Could the real reason Azura did not want the Dwemer or the tribunal to tap into the Heart be because that might set in motion Lorkan's re-emergence?

Is that why Vivec has grown so strangely powerful?

...


Would Lorkan's advent destroy the mundus?

[obscured]

Well yes, we know that there is Lore that states one set of things re Vivec - and jolly good if you like that.

But just look at the Monomyth - it indicates that Human and Mer dispute the basic tennets of the existance of the Aurbis and the mundus = in ES Lore can and does contradict itself - there can be many layers to this onion and unless the game is dead the Lore will keep evolving and previously hidden layers will continue to reveal themselves from unexpected directions - a healthy sign that. If you resolve all contradictions, deny all mystery and state new things can only come from one source, then where's the fun?

So because ES Lore is so contradictory there can always be more and new things popping up as well as obscure possibilities emerging from the standard Texts - this thread is about personal beliefs so I hope no one is going to suggest you are not permitted to believe something?

Not sure who you were addressing with this question, but just to make sure: No, I wasn't.

So what happened to Lorkhan after he "tricked"/convinced the gods to create the Mundus? And how do you see all this business with his Heart?

Seems that many of the Gods did not appreciate Lorkhan's little jest (no sense of humour them dumb Gods) and there was a big war ...

Various Gods died/were killed in the conflict and became the Earthbones according to some Lore - other Lore suggests that Yffre for example sacrificed himself and became an Earthbone to maintain the stability of the Mundus ... more paradox or conflicting Lore?

Men 'adopted' Lorkhan and the mer sided with the Aedra apparently. That would be from a celestial point of view. Another point of view (one of mine) might be that men and mer contested for mortal supremacy and dragged their Gods into it.

In the End Lorkhan was defeated and his Heart ripped out and bunged in Red Mountain (apparently) and other bits of him (don't ask which) became the Moons, Masser and Secundus. Don't ask what happened to his Muatra. :shakehead: gotta be gross!


The interesting thing is that even though 'their god' was defeated, mankind became the rulers, supplanting the mer and have adopted the Aedra/Gods themselves. That may be because the current Gods are not the Godds that fought in that war.

And now there is a new Prophet (called the Precursor) who says that Yffre is reawakening ...