What you think killing is? Being a Saint? :angel:

It's all faction karma. You are not endearing yourself to the faction that you are looting from. If you killed everyone in a location then that faction will hate you anyway, so the karmic hits from stealing are irrelevant since you do not have an overall karma score like in the previous game.

I play New Vegas the same way I have played the every other Fallout, I don't shoot anyone uless attacked first. You leave me alone, I'll leave you and your stuff alone. So it seems stupid to me to take a karma hit for collecting up ammo and what not from people that attacked me first. They started it I ended it, but I get a negetive karma hit... Its stupid. Makes me want to say forget being the good guy and just kill everyone and take everything...

I like it that these games are so awesome rp-wise that people come on here and roleplay away bad game mechanics. It's cute.
To me it just feels busted because of the incongruities in the looting systems (loot a body=okay, loot a table=evil) but on the other hand I can see how it would be nearly impossible to be "good" under the post-apocalyptic scenario we have in the game, so I just loot away. I help who I can, and steal whatever isn't moving.

What's odd about the karma thing, when it comes to factions that hate you, is that you can loot their dead bodies after you blast them into kingdom come. But you you can't loo their lockers even if their dead, like you can their bodies.

I agree that it's silly to lose karma for this. For one, the justification that "killing an enemy is okay because he's your enemy, but stealing is still stealing therefore immoral" is... not really a justification at all. Killing is killing, too. If I don't lose karma for it because it's "necessary," well, in a post-apocalyptic world, so is taking my enemy's stuff. If it's because "he's my enemy," then there's no reason I should lose karma for taking my enemy's stuff. Making the justification shakier is that I can loot his corpse and strip it bare without a single point of karma loss, but if I grab the chessboard off the table beside him (which he may very well have stolen in the first place), I lose karma for it.

But even aside from that, this mechanic "guides" players a certain way. Those who care about their character's karma, at least, even if it doesn't have much of an in-game effect. I know I do. You basically have a choice between being bad or being poor, which is kind of an unfair choice to force on your players. It places restrictions on playing the game the way you want to play. It's even worse for those who really get into the roleplaying aspect of the game; if you really get "in character," someone in a post-apocalyptic wasteland is not going to pass up an opportunity to swipe ammo and food from their enemies, and I don't think that makes them bad people.

Fortunately, mods will probably correct this soon enough. Unfortunately, only PC users will get to use them. :\

lol i hear you, as soon as i got to newvegas i decided to turn back and look around, so i found silver rush ... poped on a stealth boy and robed em' blind xD

The problem is when you reverse it, and play an evil character. Ok, the criminals like you and the "authorities" hate you...... so you should be able to steal from the "good guys" without taking a penalty for it?




Actually, there's still a seperate Karma rating. Go to the Reputation panel, the hit the "General" (or whatever) link in the top right corner. That'll take you to the normal Karma 'n Stats page.

Just take it... it is only like -3 to karma.
(and who cares about the karma now that the reputation system is in?)

Man this item tagging really bugs me. As well as the Karma notifications. Is there a mod that disables both?
I've never seen one for F3.

I mean I like the idea of Karma altering minor events that occur, like random encounters. In combination with luck, it can offer a really unique experience for every play-through. I don't know if both variables are used together already, but a mod that implements Karma Houdini and Laser Guided Karma would be awesome (TV Tropes this way-->).

However the color change of the crosshair really alters the way I loot in this game (in a bad way). Normally I would not steal, but here I just avoid red and do not use my brain, if I plan to pick anything up. Problem is, not all items that seem to belong to someone, do belong to this person. So I was able to loot Doc Mitchell's house, take all 'his' stimpacks and chems, even though he said he was low on supply. Or loot the backpack that contained a shotgun and lots of ammo near Ringo's bed, while two packs of 9mm ammo sitting right next to it where marked and so on.
If there where no notifications, I wouldn't touch those things in fear of being marked as criminal scum and my Willing Suspension of Disbelief sensor wouldn't waggle into my face at such high speed.

NV is however still a masterpiece.

OMG how do people not get this.

Stealing is ALWAYS immoral. ALWAYS.

But taking the head off someone from 300 yards, when said person is in no way hostile to me, isn't? Not according to the game. I get rewarded good karma for it.

This isn't real life. People need to calm down.

Personally I like stealing no matter what is bad karma...

I just make up for it by killing more Powder Gang.

It makes sense...

A person who will not steal even from evil doers is more "moral/karma" than someone that does. But since the one who does steal also rid the world of said evil doers, he is more "moral/karma" than someone who only steals.

No. Immoral and Evil is not any where near each other. Any one who think that is so far out the left field their in the next stadium. (I've been waiting for YEARS to use that one)

Stealing is regulated by morals. Murder however is not. Senseless murder is evil.

I view it as how you are building karma with the side you are sided with. If you are a good guy then stealing form the bad guys is justified with the people that matter to you (karma neutral) and killing those enemies builds karma with those same people (karma gain). So, killing bad guys for the good guys builds good karma with the bad guys and killing good guys when you're a bad guy builds good karma with the bad guys. Stealing from the bad guys when you're a good guy does nothing to karma but stealing from the good guys causes you to lose karma.

That is how I view an appropriate system for this. An http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOR_gate approach to karma with faction oriented meaning.

Theft is theft... but you know what, the karma loss is minimal. I steal everything under the sun, and I'm still a goody two shoes.

If you don't think killing someone without justification is immoral, you really need to look up the definition of the word.

Well, that is a HUGE oversimplification. Especially since thats not even the case in the game. I can go buy a shovel and dig up someones grave for 5 shotgun shells, but I cant take a stim pak from an enemies rusted out camper. That is the issues. It is very inconsistent. I understand stealing is immoral and wrong in OUR world, but in the post apocalyptic wasteland that is New Vegas its a little stupid to get negative Karma when taking something from a LAWLESS group of prisoners. I will take anything that I think will help me survive, Karma be damned. So far I am like an Angel of the Wastes, even though I looted the prison of everything I thought would be useful.

And hench you have low Karma.

The "I'll do anything to survive" ideology is definitely a negative karma ideology.

The system is definitely inconsistent, but in the specific instance the OP mentioned, I think it works fine.

All these mental gymnastics. The most likely reason is it was not feasible to get Karma to play nice with Factions.

I don't think it's immoral, I think it's evil. Just or not.

Okay, I need to put this argument to bed right now because it's about two days past its bed time. I can't believe I'm actually going to be lame enough to do this, but here's the dictionary definition of evil:

e·vil
? ?/?iv?l/
–adjective
1.
morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.

So, to sum up, immoral and evil are synonymous. In other words, the argument that "killing is evil but not immoral, and stealing is immoral" holds no weight.

Fine you win. Stealing isn't immoral.

It's unethical.

Oh dear. Let's not continue this game.


eth·i·cal
? ?/??θ?k?l/

—Synonyms
2. moral, upright, honest, righteous, virtuous, honorable.

—Antonyms
2. immoral.

It seems like the general consensus here is that stealing from an enemy faction shouldn't cause you bad karma. In order for this to happen, items would have to either be neutral (not owned by a particular person, so you can pick them up without worry), or they can have an owner attached. So, if Joe Blow has a house in Goodspring, all of the items in Joe Blow's house would trigger negative karma, as well as a Goodspring faction reputation hit if you steal them. If your reputation is poor with Goodspring (ie they are your enemy and will shoot you on site), then any items attached to members of that faction would be fair game, and not be highlighted red, and would not be a karma hit to steal. However, this system would basically make karma and reputation equivalent.

The reason that it works the way it does in FNV is that karma is your overall sum of good and bad deeds. You should get bad karma for doing anything immoral, and you should get good karma for doing anything good.

examples (hypothetical):
If you're a good guy murdering a bunch of raiders because they might raid an innocent village, that's still bad Karma because killing is a negative action. However, you'll gain positive reputation points with Goodspring because you're helping them. While you are killing thugs to protect the innocent, you are still committing murder, and people might be leary of him because you are a killer (look up anti-hero).

Likewise, perhaps a slaver's young innocent daughter was kidnapped by a groups of villagers who will only release her in exchange for released slaves. You could rescue the daughter, which benefits the evil slavers and does, causes the villagers to dislike you, but gives you good karma for doing a good deed.