Ok. I can tell already I can't "win" an arguement with you. You are sooo completely right,All Knowing Developer of Bethesda Studios. I mean it is your new Engine,you know all the possibilities.

:rolleyes: You're not even putting forward an argument. My post was meant to show you that you're just making (very dramatic) assertions without any basis for an argument, and assuming you are right. Clutter is not a big thing. It is a very minor aspect of the game. And you're saying by not including clutter, they can make an entire new engine or options or such. Why? Why does clutter limit this? There's no reasoning. I might as well say "With today's technology, instead of that one mountain lion mesh they could create a whole new province." It doesn't make it right unless I give solid reasoning.

Our mind work the same way it seems

Holy hell dude,you are going tooooo far with this.

"And you're saying by not including clutter,they can make an entire new engine"I never said they could make a new Engine with discarded clutter,don't change things up. Bethesda has a new Engine already in place for Skyrim,so we don't know the limits of it,but it is still a possibility for something like turning clutter into more useful things.

" instead of that one mountain lion mesh they could create a whole new province."
..you really are a witty one. Exaggerations at its best

"With today's technology that little bit of "clutter" can go towards something alot bigger. A brand new Engine,brand new options" is exactly what you said. :facepalm: My statement was hardly an exxageration.

Seriously, you're whining about them having clutter, say they should cut it back so they don't cut out other features, yet you seem to have zero idea what these features are or why clutter cuts them out, so your point is moot.

A brand new Engine provides brand new options,does it not. Those are two different sentences,it didn't mean what you took it as.

This isn't going to progress anywhere....friends? :foodndrink: lol. I don't feel like fighting anymore.

If your pc can't handle clutter you shouldn't be trying to play Skyrim

Alot of the clutter isn't even very high detail. For example the cans in fallout are just cylinders with something like 16 faces or less, even. The bent ones would have much more but nothing large. Food packets would be 4 faces since they are just squares. Easy to make and easy to render - Bethesda is good with their clutter .

ps3....woot woot ^_^

There are plenty of huge open world sandbox games without clutter like GTA, JC2, and RDR. Having a fully realized world is what sets Bethesda apart from all those other games. Give up clutter? Why don't we give up skills and character creation while we're at it and then it can be just like every other 2 inch deep sandbox game out there.

I like my sandbox to be a little deeper, thank you very much.

The game needs to feel like it could be a real world with real people, and so it needs these little touches of dirt and waste. I really enjoyed Oblivion having kitchen forks and knives, and other stuff, even though you couldn't necessarily use them for anything useful.

24 polys for the normal tin cans. 32 for the collision. Totaling 56 polys in all. Any computer today could chew up thousands of those and spit them out as bent cans.

Its the bigger models like armor you need to worry about. In Oblivion, a standard set of armor ran ~15-20 thousand polys. But even then, meh, not a big deal. An average scene could hold several hundreds of thousands of polys and you wouldn't know it.

Haha. Bent cans. Nice.

Is thats problem?
Never encounter such problems in my oblivion installation, more clutter is better since make game more living by decorating environment like houses shops and dungeons and streets with more details.

Smaller object distant rendering then, play at better systems with better performance not at 5 years old hardware.

The clutter in FO:3 wasn't useless, it was to shoot out of your Rock-It Launcher. In FO:NV you can craft stuff out of it, like weapon repair kits and chems.

Clutter was a good source of income in Morrowind for a low-level character. You can make a bit of money collecting plates and empty bottles if you're destitute! Unfortunately, in Oblivion a lot of miscellaneous items had no value, which was a pity.

i didnt see anyone mention that lots of mods use clutter as well

Nuka cola grenades FTW

its not the clutter that is spread out too much,its that there isnt anything else in a lot of places.
That i found in OB,as a thief it was a hassle in a lot of houses as there was nothing else but clutter junk,rarely anything worth the effort.
Houses should be riddled with more than just clutter in their closets and chests.
But by no means the clutter should be gone.

And on a sidenote,claiming that taking away clutter opens up possibilities for other improvements,
then passing the ball back to Beth when people ask u what those improvs might be just makes u look foolish,so either state your claim on the matter or dont speak at all,cause it make u sound like a kid going "cuz i said its so ".

This :celebration: . The awesome thing about Bethesda games is,you can pick up and throw around almost everything. Assassins creed wont let you walk into houses and pick up the very forks people eat with. It's the very essence that sets TES from crappy JRPGs.

I always hated the clutter but I liked how it added to the realism. I was sure to remove the crap from my house thogh

though it would be insane if TES cities were also the size of AC cities
But that'd be an impossibility from a technical perspective.

Just wouldn't feel like Elder Scrolls without clutter, sorry.

Did not see too much clutter in Oblivion, mostly it was decorated tables and some items on shelves. In dungeons it was mostly bones then you except bandit living areas.

Fallout 3 had lots of clutter as typical locations were ruins filled with junk and broken items.
Had it’s own feeling then the floor was filled with junk.

I doubt Skyrim will reach Fallout 3 clutter level and it would not feel correct most places.

It wouldn't be a "Wasteland" without you know, um, "Waste". it adds to the atmosphere of the game.

The rock-it-laucher needs ammo....

But the great thing in TES is that every single object in the world is an actual object, not scenery. Besides, lag and freezes are rare as it is and it's seriosuly usually not caused by free placed objects.

This + 100

Two things that will be around until the end are combat and clutter.
Combat is self explanatory, clutter adds a feel, vibe, atmosphere.
With that clutter you get more of a feel of where you are than a long discriptive text.
Without that clutter you're left with generic places, Beth handles the visual feel very well.