I'd like to know how you make two different Conjurers or two different warriors who both specialize in Heavy Armor and Swords.

By all means, do provide examples.

This game is a far cry from deep or complex. The "deepest" element would be the random texts that you can read. Beyond that, it's more like Doom or Hexen with a lot of voice acting. If you want to compare it to the majority of the games released since 2005, then ok...it's "deeper" than many, but that's not a terribly difficult task. You are also being overly defensive and looking to be insulted. It's ok, Bethesda does not need you to protect them.

You also kind of lost me with the "user friendly" bit. I'm assuming you don't play on the PC. If you did, then you would understand how unintuitive and user abusive the UI is. I'm also assuming that by "tediously complex" you simply mean "needing to figure anything out on your own", since there's literally no chance in this game for you to actually do this.

I have to ask. Are you serious?
Abilities like removing summoned / raised enemies from the battle with a single hit are not good enough for you?

2 different Conjurers:

1. Someone perks up the Atronach tree to focus on Atronachs.

2. Someone perks up the Necromancy tree to focus on being a Necromancer and reanimating fallen foes.

Other options: Perk up the Bound Weapons tree to use Conjuration as a combat skill.

Different warriors:

Heavy Armor:

-Someone perks up the Conditioning path to become agile and nimble
-Someone perks up the Reflected Blows path to become more of a damage sponge.

One Handed:

-Someone perks up Power Attacks to focus on their different types of attacks.
-Someone perks up the Dual Wield tree to focus on 2 weapons.
-Someone perks up Dual Wielding and Power Attacks tree to maximize all one handed combat.
-3 different weapons specializations that change the types of weapons different players will use.

So many other examples.

My friend is playing a dual wielding, heavy armored warrior. He is perked out completely different from my dual wielding, heavy armored warrior.

I totally agree. During the first several/many hours of play I didn't really understand how the perk system worked. My brain was still playing Morrowind and Oblivion. I wasted 7 or 8 perk points on skills that I shouldn't have. By the time I figured out exactly how this new system worked and how I wanted to build my character I was over 20 hours into this game. NOBODY wants to have to replay all that time. I definatly wish I could have those perk points back.

silent roll is freaking amazing.

Doom with voice acting? Are you serious?

If that's what you think about Skyrim then I simply can't continue this conversation with you, because you obviously don't know the game very well.

Exactly! In Morrowind and Oblivion (Vanilla) nearly every char I played ended up as a demigod with every skill and attribute above 90. Oblivion XP fixed that for me.

In Skyrim my char still has godlike abilities if I use a bow but if I raise a sword or use magic I die pretty easily if my companion doesn't tank the damage. This is freakin great and realistic! Although I do agree with the point someone had earlier of stamina raising carry weight. Both stamina and health should raise the carry weight, since with a thief and assassin I find myself still putting a few points in magicka, but with a full warrior I wouldn't do that.

I also do agree with the point that the leveling system of Skyrim in general doesn't work as well with perks as the leveling system of e.g. Fallout 3, but it still works pretty good for me.

Silent Roll is like the most handy thing ever! I use it to dodge and maneuver more easily in sneak mode. Combined with Shadow Warrior it makes direct combat as a sneak quite fun and exciting.

I disagree. You can play a stealth character without ever putting a single point into sneaking - I do right now - and it feels completely different from the character on which I maxed sneaking.
IRL if 2 people train the same martial art, they won't end up the same. No matter how much I tried I never learned to do proper jump and roundhouse kicks. Perks represent that.
Just because you end up making your characters the same, don't assert that everyone else does it too. It's a bad habit

Not everyone is a genius in his/her field of work. Sometimes people would make great pianists and yet end up working as construction workers. Try experimenting.

Hahaha, about what I expected. You're making an entire "tree" or "different playstyle" out of what, two, maybe three perks? Your melee examples are even more ridiculous - "I picked Bladesman and my buddy picked Hack and Slash, totally different gameplay!"

No. It's not different just because you are slightly better at using axes and your buddy is slightly better at using swords. Not to mention unless you're roleplaying-gimping yourself, you will take everything from Heavy Armor anyway because both Conditioning and Matching Set are too good to pass up. One-handed is almost the same, it's a no-brainer, if you go with shield or spellsword then don't pick dual-wielding perks, if you go dual-wielding then pick the perks... next thing you will tell me is that because you went with Light Armor and your buddy with Heavy Armor they're two different characters.

I play a dual wielding bound blade conjurer atm. No other summons, no destruction, no illusion.
Once again - just beacuse you end up making the same character all over again, don't assume othe people do. Have you ever tried to play thief with no sneak perks but maxed speech perks? It's fun. Try it sometimes.

A few are useless. But nothing to complain about, as so many of you guys do that never have played a game earlier, it seems.

Lockpicking, yes, its useless.

All other trees have uses.
Even pickpocketing a few perks have its uses when you want to pickpocket large sums etc, you need it. Otherwise rather uselsss.

Every tree have a few perks thats not necessary, or some have it. Big deal.

I think only Heavy armor have 2 rather useless perks before they can take weight nothing. But the rest dont have useless perks.

Even Archer tree, some say "hunters" something is useless, to get more arrows. Its not, and its not how the perk works. It works so that you pick up your used arrows on targets, 90% of the time.
In other words, you can use your high expensive arrows with that perk as you will pick back most of them.

Stop finding reasons to complain about this game. Jezus. Im not a fan boy but people do anything to get attention and find reasons to hate now adays.

i stil think, more active abilities in the perk tree (especially high up) would make characters much more distinct and be a great rewards for climbing up a perk tree...

this could be fore example: warriors special maneuvres and attacks - like reposte/counter, disarm, distract etc..
archers special shots or traps (like bear traps) you can put on the floor
assassins - for example smoke grenades or also special kind of attacks...saltos to jump over an enemy
mages - the combination of spells to create unique effects or make em stronger (like in dragon age)...

No offence but you just lost all credibility to be taken serious on these forums.

As for the person that talks about sneak characters being alike. First, you both have sneak, thats not something many classes have.
But I would say that the difference between stealthy ranger and a dagger wielding assasain, just there, is two pretty big differences in how you play the game.

I use silent roll all the time... getting past lighted corners or doorways, ending silent roll with a slash of my dagger... so yeah pretty nifty.

Silent Roll is amazing. Let's you quickly get past those lighted areas, and it's useful on quickly catching up on an enemy without having to leave sneak. The only perks I would say are mostly useless are the ones in the Lockpicking tree. The Lockpicking minigame is tough when you're low level, sure. But the game throws so many picks at you that it doesn't even matter.

Well it's just fair that Heavy Armor users need to spend more perk points to get no weight.

Otherwise I totally agree with your post.



Exactly! I am playing a stealth archer/hunter atm and after finally getting silent roll at Lvl 55 I think my next char will be a dagger backstabbing son of a [censored].



I hope you don't have the opinion that you had more diversity with the former system from Morrowind and Oblivion...

Quite a lot of the perks are not perky at all but abilities that should have been covered by the skill tree.

I get 20% more damage from my blade? Why on Nirn doesnt the skill take care of that?
Perks would have been great, if they had been like Fallout perks, actual advantages and abilities that spice up the gameplay.

As it is, its a gimmick, and a failed one.

Who cares about Silent Roll? It's a cool little thing for sneakers.

We're talking about TRULY worthless perks, like the lockpick tree entirely, I can lockpick master locks with only 1-10 picks from level 20, 20 picks if I mess up. In Morrowind I remember if you didnt have your lockpick at master level you might as well give up trying with those locks. Illusion seems like a waste, even on my mage I didn't spend points on it. Speech is kind of worthless since you get the necklace from the thieves guild anyway, and after you get your enchanting up you can just enchant yourself some price items. Alteration is useful but it's a joke, you just have a small little aura around you? FAR less cooler than bound armor. Conjuration is lame, you can only conjure up like 4 things, and only 3 types of bound weapons.

Getting your 1handed skill up to 100 will see ~50-60% damage increase. The perks add to that. The difference between a soldier and a swordmaster.

As said there are no useless perks. There may be perks that can be largely ignored as the returns on them are low, but they all do something, even lockpicking (I can open the master locks, and lockpicks aren't that hard to find - though honestly the main problem here is how common the lockpicks are not the perks - but my experience will not be the same as everyones).
Bear in mind some help roleplaying, not everything has to benefit the efficiency you kill things with.

Thats a good point.

The perk system definitely is a step in the right direction, compared to the generic masters-of-everything that past TES characters eventually ended up as. It feels very unpolished, however, with many perks providing rather dubious benefits or merely bumping a few numbers here and there. The latter amuses me greatly, as many people celebrated the removal of attributes to get rid of boring number crunching, while at the same time praising the perk system, even though most of it is just the same number crunching.

All the bland perks that do nothing more than "up weapon damage by 20%", "make stealth 20% better", or "gives you 10% better prices" need to go. They're just filler and do things that the actual skill is supposed to accomplish. Unlocking unique abilities and play-styles is what would make them interesting and worthwile. Sweeping attacks, disarms, stunning and confusing the enemy, new spell effects and summons, setting traps or targeting specific body parts for different effects, etc...

Also, it would have been better to split off perks from the skills. It's hard to come up with many useful things to do with Lockpicking, for example. Instead we would have a broad tree of perks with many branches, each having different skill prerequisites and maybe even demanding a high skill in two different skills to allow for interesting combinations and options. For example, a high skill in both destruction and conjuration unlocks perks that greatly enhance the spellcasting ability of your summons, or allows you to imbue your bound weapons with elemental effects.

And yet you still play on your SDTV daily. Weird.