Headhots may not kill people instantly always but you can be sure they wouldn't be fighting for a long while. Most of the time arrow in the head would kill and such weapons have proven to peace armour. I'm pretty sure an iron arrow would kill you instantly 95% of the time if it hit you in the head. The critical hit system in this game works more than actual crucial hits would do.

I used to think games were real life.. Till I took an arrow to the face.

I'll get my coat.. :bolt:

Yea, what's standard in and expected in an RPG now encompasses more than just the acronym.

I'm glad there's so much response to this. I didn't expect it.

To be honest, I do like the way it's set up. It makes for a challenge. It's easy for me to get a couple of shots off, with the slow time perk. And if you upgrade the crit hit %, even better. And finally, if you make the right poison, like my favorite is a paralyze 14 seconds and lingering damage health. It pretty much rules even the tougher opponents. Switch to my dual weilding epic elven daggers (22 dmg each) and that svcker is toast.

I would not enjoy getting a headshot every time, which I do on sneak attack, and have that be the end of the battle. I do thing everything is as it should be, even not allowing the aiming of hand weilding weapons; reason being the same. An axe or or sword to the face would not be a good fight because nobody could sustain more than one blow. That's why the decapitate perk is available. It would be cool though to chop off a leg or an arm like in Dead Island, and then have that NPC yell, "I'm not dead yet! Come here, I'll bite your leg off!" <-Monty Python reference if someone missed it

I take it you've played Vagrant Story? That game takes the exact mechanic you just described. I maintain that Skyrim is doing the exact same thing, except instead of each hit having a certain percentage of making contact and doing full damage, all the hits make contact and do that percentage of full damage instead.

Thus, instead of 1 in 5 hits landing and doing 100 damage, every hit lands and does 20.

Here's my take on the whole headshot thing...

I completely understand where the whole RPG mechanic of character skill in relation to damage, etc, etc, comes from, but there is that other problem of realism. You see, this isn't some mid 90's RPG with 2D sprites running around anymore. Bethesda seems to have gone out of their way to make this world seem as real as the very one we live in. For me at least, that is part of the game is as big a draw as the RPG aspects. Take this for example...

When you drop weapons on the floor in a random city, a guard approaches you and says that's dangerous and not to do it again. At first I was like WTF!?!?! And then I was like... that's actually pretty cool. Now I have to be accountable for little actions I make around town so as not to piss off the guards or anyone else.

Now I mozy out of town and get jumped by bandits. I pump more arrows through their heads than all of General Custer's Lieutenants combined and one of them still manages to sprint 10 yards to my location and smash me in two with their warhammer. Am I supposed to say... "Oh, that's alright... that's what an RPG is supposed to be like since everyone says so..."

You see, I believe in creating such a realistic world, Bethesda needs to find a way to break the mold of typical RPG conventions. I really feel that these two elements strongly contradict each other.

But it's not doing the same thing. Even if in theory, randomized (or rather, skill-determined) damage accurately reflects a character's skill and their ability to place shots, it takes away the strategic element of combat. Without the option for strategy, there's no thought put into how you attack someone. You can sneak up on them or you can charge in and unleash power attacks and bashes. Of course, all of those are options even with locational damage/effects present. So you trade off a wider range of freedom and choice for the player in exchange for what? "Character skill"? Something that is very much maintainable in a system with greater tactical breadth?

-----

And I haven't played Vagrant Story. Is it available for PC 'cause that's all I've got?

Very good point...I'll tell you what I think should happen. With more difficult NPCs, like dremora lords or Voltags, they should be able to swat off the first attack, like they're powerful enough to hear that first arrow in flight, and then battle with regular damage as they fight your follower at close range. That would be a simple fix. Not all the time be able to do this, but certainly enough where you go, "C'mon!!," in disappointment.

Actually, you've brought up a point but not quite the one I think you intended to.

When a game becomes so physics-bound and player-based in combat, especially in a first-person game, it is going to be drawn away from character-orientation. Having characters have dice rolls and abstract hit points was not just some arbitrary decision or a limitation of technology - it reflects a different kind of game, where the CHARACTER'S SKILLS matter instead of the PLAYER'S SKILLS. There is an inherent tension between the real-time FP format TES chose and their classical, abstract mechanics derived from role-playing.

Personally, I prefered it when you had to roll to hit, because how fast I am on the mouse really shouldn't have that much effect on how well my character aims.

I have an open mind and you bring good points, however you're making a lot of appeals to authority that I can't verify. I don't have any data about this, I'd just find it hard to believe that the majority of people with an arrow shot through their heads wouldn't be immediately incapacitated. In any case, out of curiosity, do you have any numbers to support that most don't?

Shoot someone in a crotch with an arrow...

"IS THAT ALL YOU'VE GOT?!"



Yeah, its a bit unrealistic but oh well its just a game

It is wierd though that you can shoot arrows into both eyes of an NPC and they will still come at you with 20/20 vision yet stick a bucket on their head and you can steal the floor beneath them. :shrug:

Defintely won't be fighting for long. 10 minutes tops if the person is in peak physical condition. Battle-hardened bandit, I'd give him average 7 minutes. The affects of adrenaline tends to destroy the body as well, so even if the head shot isn't fatal, the shock+adrenaline will likely kill him once the initial burst drops off.

You'd be surprised how much you can endure and not "instantly die." There is a reason the term "golden hour" exists. I speak from experience.

Granted, obviously the bandit isn't going to drop ever with the arrow if you don't hit him again IN THE GAME. Was just trying to point out to people that headshot /= instant death in real life, so shouldn't expect it in a game.

A few things people can do legally to test this for their self:

Cut the head off a chicken.
Cut the head off a beetle/ant/other insect.

You'll see that the body doesn't even stop moving then. That's with the entire head severed. A bit of brain damage isn't going to make someone drop to the ground, instantly dead.

That could definitely be a start! At least it shows an effort at some kind of realism.

This is 'Acceptable Break from Reality' isn't it?

I do understand the logic for character based skills, but at least don't show me the 500 arrows sticking out of his skull. Make them disappear or something. I'd rather it not be there than show me that ridiculousness.

Or atleast let me pull the arrows out that are visibly sticking out of the chest and head, dry them on the dead body's clothes, and put back into my quiver...that's right, I said my quiver.

Why people automatically assume locational damage would violate character skill priority or make the game easier? I am sure accuracy would play a role in archery skill if such system is implemented and it could make the archery skill even more important.

PS. In Morrowind, we were missing a lot but why and how are we missing? I knew that my opponent was blocking/parrying/dodging my attacks or I was not passing through the armor. I am sure the animation and AI can be developed to present that realistically instead of the annoying swooshes of Morrowind!

An NPC can block/parry/dodge every single attack of player character because NPC has advanced skills and player character doesn't. You can hit every single time now, so all you have to do is hack&slash! When in doubt, hit faster. That doesn't violate character skill at all, right? Morrowind is failing at this too, don't get me wrong. It tries to simulate this but 1/10 chance to hit just means you have to hit faster to raise the probability and it would be the same. We need threshold systems to simulate this in combat and armor. Also passive blocks are an awesome mechanic that would help the difficulty of controls.

I am a simulationist/immersionist, so this is just common sense for me.

PS.
It isn't. (imo)

lol are you seriously suggesting people go out and decapitate chickens? XD
anyway, those are convulsions and nothing like conscious thoughts which is kind of required for combat
or do your chickens try to exact revenge after you cut their heads of? XD

ow and I wouldn't really advise trying this unless you're sick in the head or something
I regularly have to kill sick,dying animals around the house (we have chickens and pigeons and [censored])
and it's not a whole lot of fun, makes me feel bad every single time

I don't see how you intended to use those examples because they obviously don't apply to human beings. Also, in combat sports, a blunt impact on the head from the opponent's fist does turn you off instantly on a regular basis. It doesn't kill you but the fight or flight system doesn't apply there even in the heat of battle. People are instantly incapacitated by such methods regularly.

I sent you a PM with some info and an offer to go into more detail. For the public:

"majority of people" and "most don't [drop instantly]" is a hard thing to say, especially when comparing it to what one would expect of a battle-hardened bandit in a fantastical setting.

Your averge American citizen that has not even been in a fist fight? Chances are, he is dropping the second an arrow pierces his/her arm. Let alone the head.

Criminal who has been shot multiple times and is still alive (best way I can think to equate to this bandit)? He will take the arrow and keep fighting until his body gives out (5-10 minutes as mentioned in previous post). Most of the brain isn't even needed for this type of action. The lower brain is all that needs to be intact (not even fully intact, just partially) for someone to control their low-level motor skills. People tend to forget that the bulk of the human brain isn't needed for basic functions. Some think that we only use 10% or whatever, but this has recently been proven false. We use most of our brain. However, the bulk of our "human" brain concerns itself with such things as memory, speech, social interaction, high-logic, etc. All you need to "charge in and keep fighting" is the lower brain which can withstand significant damage before becoming useless (as can be verified by animal testing if you wish).

I'm not sure battle-hardened is any more accurate than impoverished homeless people in an incredibly harsh landscape trying to live off the land and attacking travelers to stay fed. Disease and malnutrition is likely common, not to mention most of these people probably don't have a death wish and aren't any more likely to bruteforce their way through excruciating pain.

Or to be more accurate, we don't know anything about our enemies other than that they are enemies, and simply classifying them as "Strong Guys" seems to lack some nuance. :shrug:

Non-issue, if you're worried about immersion and its real life parallels well then...

Go cast any spell on a bear in real life and get back to me with the details.

I was gonna write more on the issue, but well that pretty much sums it up.

Its okay to shoot fire/ice/lightning from your hands, summon daedra, etc. but not okay to have multiple arrows in something's head?

Just imagine they have some sort of magical force field, I think its in the Resto tree under this heading:

Balance.

They do apply. While humans do have higher functions (obviously) that are controlled by our more evolved brain, we still have "animal brains" at the base. Read other post for some more on that.

I'm glad you brought up blunt impact and knock outs. Very specific nerves must be hit (most notably the one in your chin, on both sides, if you feel it there is a little notch. Punch someone there and you can easily put someone out). However, the key here is the blunt damage and how energy is dispersed.

An arrow cuts through and is slowed down by the matter/tissue that it impacts. A fist say, or a billy club is much more likely to put someone down thanks to the reverberations of blunt force trauma. I'd rather be stabbed in the gut than have someone swing at my stomach full force with a baseball bat for isntance. The stab will make me bleed, true (I have lots of blood I can lose before it even becomes dangerous. Usually around 2 pints). Chance are though, he isn't going to damage anything I can't live without. That baseball bat though, it's going to damage nearly every organ (kidney, liver, etc). This is much more dangerous as not only are these organs essential, but the internal bleeding is obviously much harder to stop.

Anyway, that's getting way off subject and rambling a bit.

Point is blunt force trauma is far more likely to "knock out" than something like an arrow that is slicing through tissue and not dispersing much energy beyond the points it actually hits.

As someone who hunts with a bow in real life, this is 100% accurate. Make a perfect shot on a deer (straight through the heart and lungs), and it's still likely to run a good couple hundred yards. Arrows don't rely on impact to kill, they don't have the velocity.

And this definitely wouldn't instantly kill a deer:
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh159/esrafael/ScreenShot4.jpg