LTPD Gives me the Crashies : IV

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:24 am

I don't normally post these kinds of topics, but I've recently come across a mysterious problem: it is impossible for me to load the mod Let the People Drink (v2-5) into my game. If I try, the game crashes shortly (read: about 1 second into the load) after selecting my save. Recent modifications to my LO include three of Arthmoor's village mods and OBGEv2. I followed all the standard procedures for installing a new mod (install, run BOSS for placement guidelines, rebuild bashed patch, regenerate DistantLOD), as well as renaming the COBL plugin to LetThePeopleDrink.esp (read the readme on this) but to no avail.

My next thought was that something might be inexplicably causing problems with me just adding a new mod into my LO, so I tested this by activating a Bash merged plugin (to increase the number of loaded mods by one), but the game loaded just fine with that. I'm nowhere hear the 255 active mod limit, nor am I near the 400 ESM/ESP/BSA limit either. This problem appears to be isolated to LTPD, as the problems went away completely when the mod was uninstalled. Anyone have any ideas why I am unable to use this mod?

Load Order (with LTPD in the spot BOSS recommended to me, although it has obviously been booted now):

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:00  Oblivion.esm01  TR_OoT_Main.esm02  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 1.0]03  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.73]04  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm  [Version 1.34]05  Mart's Monster Mod.esm  [Version 3.7b3p3]06  Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esm  [Version 0.9.9MB3]07  Armamentarium.esm  [Version 1.35]08  Kvatch Rebuilt.esm09  Better Cities Resources.esm  [Version 4.8.3]0A  Progress.esm  [Version 2.2]0B  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.3.3]0C  Oblivion Citadel Door Fix.esp0D  DLCShiveringIsles.esp0E  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.4.0]0F  Better Cities .esp10  LoadingScreens.esp11  All Natural.esp  [Version 1.1]12  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 1.0]13  AN Scripts.esp14  Enhanced Water v2.0 HD.esp++  Enhanced Water v2.0 HD - SI Addon.esp  [Version 0.1]++  Symphony of Violence.esp15  MIS Low Wind.esp16  Rainbows.esp17  All Natural - Real Lights.esp  [Version 1.1]18  WindowLightingSystem.esp19  Akatosh Mount By Saiden Storm.esp++  Item interchange - Extraction.esp  [Version 0.78]1A  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 5.1]1B  FF_Real_Thirst.esp1C  DropLitTorchOBSE.esp  [Version 2.4]1D  Duke Patricks - Friendship Ring For Companion Detection.esp  [Version 1.8]1E  FormID Finder4.esp1F  Map Marker Overhaul.esp  [Version 3.8]20  Map Marker Overhaul - SI additions.esp  [Version 3.5]21  Enhanced Hotkeys.esp  [Version 1.4]22  DLCHorseArmor.esp23  DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.6]24  DLCOrrery.esp25  DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.4]26  DLCVileLair.esp27  DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.6]28  DLCMehrunesRazor.esp29  DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.5]2A  DLCSpellTomes.esp++  DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.1]2B  Adonnays Elven Weaponry for NPCs.esp2C  DLCThievesDen.esp2D  DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.7]2E  Cobl Glue.esp  [Version 1.73]2F  Cobl Si.esp  [Version 1.63]30  FF_Real_Thirst, Cobl.esp++  Cobl Tweaks.esp  [Version 1.73]31  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp  [Version 1.34]32  OMOBS.esp  [Version 1.0]33  OMOBS_SI.esp  [Version 1.0]++  Adonnays Elven Weaponry for NPCs - Armamentarium piggyback.esp34  OOO 1.32-Cobl.esp  [Version 1.72]35  Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB3]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Less Bone Loot.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  Mart's Monster Mod for OOO - LessReaversInGates.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB3]++  Mart's Monster Mod - No Balrogs.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Spawn Rates - Reduced.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]36  Mart's Monster Mod - Safer Quest Locations.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  Mart's Monster Mod - Friendlier Factions OOO.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]37  Mart's Monster Mod - Farm Animals.esp  [Version 3.7b3p3]++  ArmamentariumLL4OOO.esp  [Version 2.01]++  ArmamentariumLLMagicOOO.esp  [Version 1.35]38  LoadingScreens-OOO.esp++  MMM-Cobl.esp  [Version 1.73]39  Kvatch Rebuilt.esp++  Kvatch Rebuilt - OOO Compatibility.esp3A  Kvatch Rebuilt Weather Patch.espXX LetThePeopleDrink.esp <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< If it worked, it would go here. COBL aware version, obviously.3B  The Ayleid Steps.esp  [Version 3.4]3C  TR_Stirk.esp3D  DLCBattlehornCastle.esp3E  DLCBattlehornCastle - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.5]3F  DLCfrostcrag.esp40  Kvatch Rebuilt_Frostcrag Reborn.esp41  FrostcragRebornCobl.esp42  Knights.esp43  Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.1]++  Mart's Monster Mod for OOO - Knights .esp  [Version 0.9.9MB3]44  The Lost Spires.esp45  AFK_Weye.esp  [Version 2.2.COBL]46  MannimarcoRevisited.esp47  MannimarcoRevisitedOOO.esp  [Version 0.1]48  road+bridges.esp  [Version 4.5.8]49  Feldscar.esp  [Version 1.0.6]4A  Vergayun.esp  [Version 1.0.6]4B  Faregyl.esp  [Version 1.0.10]4C  xuldarkforest.esp  [Version 1.0.4]4D  LostSpires-DarkForest patch.esp4E  xulStendarrValley.esp  [Version 1.2.2]4F  xulTheHeath.esp50  XulEntiusGorge.esp51  xulFallenleafEverglade.esp  [Version 1.3.1]52  LostSpires-Everglade patch.esp  [Version 1.2]53  xulColovianHighlands_EV.esp  [Version 1.2.1]54  xulChorrolHinterland.esp  [Version 1.2.2]55  xulBeachesOfCyrodiilLostCoast.esp  [Version 1.6.4]56  xulBravilBarrowfields.esp  [Version 1.3.2]57  xulLushWoodlands.esp  [Version 1.3.1]58  xulAncientYews.esp  [Version 1.4.3]59  xulAncientRedwoods.esp  [Version 1.6]5A  xulCloudtopMountains.esp  [Version 1.0.3]5B  xulArriusCreek.esp  [Version 1.1.3]5C  xulPatch_AY_AC.esp  [Version 1.1]5D  xulRollingHills_EV.esp  [Version 1.3.3]5E  xulPantherRiver.esp5F  xulRiverEthe.esp  [Version 1.0.2]60  xulBrenaRiverRavine.esp  [Version 1.1]61  xulImperialIsle.esp  [Version 1.6.6]62  xulBlackwoodForest.esp  [Version 1.1.0]63  xulCheydinhalFalls.esp  [Version 1.0.1]64  KvatchRebuilt-CheydinhalFalls patch.esp65  xulAspenWood.esp  [Version 1.0.2]66  xulSkingradOutskirts.esp  [Version 1.0.1]67  xulSnowdale.esp  [Version 1.0.1]68  Feldscar+Snowdale Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]69  FrostcragReborn-Snowdale patch.esp6A  SnowdaleOOOPatch.esp6B  xulCliffsOfAnvil.esp6C  OOOCliffsofAnvilPatch.esp  [Version 1.0]6D  NRB4+UL-II Patch.esp  [Version 5.0.1]6E  ImpeREAL Empire - Unique Forts.esp6F  ImpeREALForts+LostSpires Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.1]70  Better Cities - House price patch.esp  [Version 1.0]71  Harvest [Flora].esp  [Version 3.0.0]++  Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp  [Version 3.0.0]++  Harvest [Flora] - DLCVileLair.esp  [Version 3.0.0]72  Harvest [Flora] - DLCFrostcrag.esp  [Version 3.0.0]73  HUD Status Bars.esp  [Version 2.0.1]74  kuerteeInventoryIsABackpack.esp75  Enhanced Economy - House prices.esp  [Version 1.0]76  RealisticFatigue.esp77  RealSleepExtended.esp  [Version 2.5]78  SupremeMagicka.esp  [Version 0.89]79  SM_ShiveringIsles.esp  [Version 0.86]++  SM_DLCSpellTome.esp  [Version 0.80]++  SM_OOO.esp  [Version 0.89]++  SM_MMM.esp  [Version 0.89]++  SM_COBL.esp  [Version 0.86]7A  SM_EnchantStaff.esp  [Version 0.80]++  SM_UnlockSpells.esp  [Version 0.70]++  SM_Scrolls.esp  [Version 0.84]++  SM_SigilStone.esp  [Version 0.83]7B  SM Bounty.esp  [Version 1.22c]++  CoblDeathFix.esp  [Version 1.20]7C  Duke Patricks - Combat Archery.esp  [Version 3.6]7D  Duke Patricks - Actors Can Miss Now.esp7E  nGCD.esp7F  nGCD Oghma Infinium.esp++  nGCD Skeleton Key.esp80  ProgressArmorer.esp  [Version 1.0]**  Let There Be Darkness - Cyrodiil + SI.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - Knights.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - Mehrunes Razor.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - Thieves Den.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - OOO.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - Kvatch Rebuilt.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - Lost Spires.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - UL Colovian Highlands.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - UL Lost Coast.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - UL Brena.esp**  Let There Be Darkness - UL Blackwood Forest.esp++  Item interchange - Placement.esp  [Version 0.78]++  Item interchange - Placement for Frostcrag Reborn.esp  [Version 0.78]81  Cobl Races.esp  [Version 1.52]++  Cobl Races - Balanced.esp  [Version 1.52]82  Better Cities Full.esp  [Version 4.8.3]83  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Barrowfields.esp  [Version 4.7.0]84  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp  [Version 4.7.0]85  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Cheydinhal Falls.esp  [Version 4.8.1]86  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp  [Version 4.8.1]87  Better Imperial City.esp  [Version 4.8.1]88  Better Imperial City FPS Patch.esp  [Version 4.8.1]89  Better Cities - COBL.esp  [Version 2.1]8A  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Imperial Isle.esp  [Version 4.8.1]8B  Better Cities Full FPS Patch.esp  [Version 4.8.1]8C  Real Hunger, Cobl.esp  [Version 1.6.1]**  NRB4 Standard Road Record.esp++  Cobl Filter Late MERGE ONLY.esp  [Version 1.53]**  All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.esp  [Version 1.1]8D  Bashed Patch, 0.esp8E  MergedMaps.esp8F  Oblivion Graphics Extender Support.esp  [Version 0.41]90  Streamline 3.1.esp

EDIT: New test, would installing a different mod (Arthmoor's Molapi) cause the same problem? Answer: no. I'm pretty convinced now that this problem is not being caused by me.

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:00 am

Not that I have a solid idea about the crash, but... Are you checking LTPD in any of the bashed patch options?

Also, Streamline doesn't have to live after the bashed patch anymore. It is fine where BOSS puts it now, somewhere near the top, I believe.

Ah. And, you don't seem to have any of the LTPD patches. There's one for New Bridges and Roads, I believe, as well as at least one for the UL mods. ~~And, I don't use Better Cities, but does it need a patch, too?~~ No, I guess they're compatible out of the box.

This is the ESP you need - NRB4+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp (found in the UL patches compilation from Nexus) - instead of the one you have. Maybe that'll fix your problem?

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:46 am

Recent modifications to my LO include three of Arthmoor's village mods and OBGEv2.

I would temporarily disable OBGE and see if the problems persist.

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:36 am

Have you tried cleaning LtPD?

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:42 am

Not that I have a solid idea about the crash, but... Are you checking LTPD in any of the bashed patch options?

Also, Streamline doesn't have to live after the bashed patch anymore. It is fine where BOSS puts it now, somewhere near the top, I believe.

Ah. And, you don't seem to have any of the LTPD patches. There's one for New Bridges and Roads, I believe, as well as at least one for the UL mods. ~~And, I don't use Better Cities, but does it need a patch, too?~~ No, I guess they're compatible out of the box.

This is the ESP you need - NRB4+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp (found in the UL patches compilation from Nexus) - instead of the one you have. Maybe that'll fix your problem?

BOSS didn't give LTPD any tags, nor is the mod provided any out of the box, so there are no options to check for it in the Bashed Patch rebuild, I only need to rebuild it so it's in sync with my LO.

I'm also failing to see how some torn landscaping and floating rocks would be contributing to this.

Streamline relies entirely on scripting, and so is LO independent. I'm getting no complaints or incompatibilities from the game with Streamline loading last, so I'd prefer to leave it where it is.

I would temporarily disable OBGE and see if the problems persist.

I can add any other mod and load it in just fine, it's only this one that Oblivion blows up on, so I doubt that OBGE is causing this.

~~My suspicion now: the BBC compatibility script is borked. I'll try testing with BBC removed from my LO.~~

EDIT: Ahh, yes, it was indeed dirty edits causing this. A quick pass through TES4Edit later, and I've gotten things back together again. Now for the patch.
So, moral of this story: ALWAYS check if your mods are clean. Folks do not lie when they say dirt can wreak havoc on your game.

Gothemasticator, the patch you were talking about was actually in the NRB4 page, not the UL patch compilation.

» Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:39 pm

Ahh, yes, it was indeed dirty edits causing this.

Damn dirty edits!! : :flamethrower:
Glad you got it working again. I should also commence cleaning my mods, I'm terribly lazy in that respect... a matter of time until something blows up on me as well.... :cold:

Edit: Actually an idea... :lightbulb:

Instead of producing lists of mods that are already cleaned, how about making a negative list of mods in need of cleaning?

It could serve as a guide and yellow-light for users playing these mods in unclean states. When running into problems, look up that list see if a mod of yours is on the list...

Gamers doing any clean-up jobs themselves should report there if dirty edits were found...

I think this could be useful, no?

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:01 am

There's been a lot of discussion on that, IIRC, and most of it comes down to this: so many people out are there releasing their mods in an unclean state just doesn't make it feasible to manage such a list.

Perhaps we could develop a "trusted source" list of people who clean their mods before release? If you're on that list, then you are known to release your mods pre-cleaned. This way, if you download a mod from a gray-listed (that is, not on the cleaning white-list) person, you know that it might be necessary to pass the mod through TES4Edit.

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:02 am

Perhaps we could develop a "trusted source" list of people who clean their mods before release?

Yeah I guess a proposed negative list will be essentially endless. So your idea has appeal. How could a modder become a "Certified Clean Modder" ? Just asking.

but probably worth discussing.

Then he may clean the initial release but forgets to clean a subsequent update... I mean we're all only humans... so I could see problems there as well. Maybe it really comes down to each gamer checking on his mods if they're clean or not... :unsure:

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:34 am

BTW, when I say "clean" I also mean doing the undelete+disable pass. Dirty edits are only half of the problem and cleaning those is only half of a solution.

As for a "negative list" there's one of sorts already on the CS Wiki with the cleaning topic. I've added this one to the list with a note that cleaning it fixes CTD issues.

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:13 am

BTW, when I say "clean" I also mean doing the undelete+disable pass. Dirty edits are only half of the problem and cleaning those is only half of a solution.

As for a "negative list" there's one of sorts already on the CS Wiki with the cleaning topic. I've added this one to the list with a note that cleaning it fixes CTD issues.

Thanks for that tip Arthmoor. I'll go about cleaning my "mod house" very soon. I'll check the CS Wiki what is there already and would post updates / add mod names and links there, if possible.

Edit: Where can I learn about the "undelete+disable pass" you mention? The two cleaning guides on CS Wiki do not have anything on that (unless i was totally blind when I looked now). I checked these http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Mod_Cleaning_Tutorial and http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/TES4Edit/Mod_cleaning_tutorial_with_TES4Edit.

Never mind, I think I http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/TES4Edit_Cleaning_Guide.

Edit2: Oh my.... just saw the "to clean list" and think I'll be busy until..... :dead:

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:11 am

I am busy installing Oblivion again after not playing for a few years and I am going through all the mods I still have from the time I played. And I happen to see this post and as I also have LtPD in my mod list.

I was wondering what exactly the problem was. I understand that your version was not clean, but where did you get the download from, or are all 2.5 versions dirty? And can I use an older version then, can't remember having problems with the 2.3 version I still have.

And is it hard to clean a the mod? I mean, I don't mind looking into these kind of things, but I do actually want to play the game at some point, if it's to much hassle i simply won't add the mod into my list.

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:42 am

BTW, when I say "clean" I also mean doing the undelete+disable pass. Dirty edits are only half of the problem and cleaning those is only half of a solution.

Undelete and disable is part of my standard cleaning procedure, so rest assured they've been dealt with. :wink_smile:

@Sunn

Why the dirty edits cause this crash is not known to me at this point (I'll see if perhaps I can track them down in TES4Edit). I downloaded from TESNexus, and if 2.5 was dirty, it is a safe assumption that previous versions are dirty, too.

Cleaning the mod is actually very easy. Just download and install http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11536 and follow the guide linked to in Tommy_H's above post.

And as Arthmoor said, don't forget the undelete and disable pass.

» Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:00 pm

Chances are it's the deleted references that caused the issue. Dwip has a mod out that does some post-MQ cleanup on the IC Temple area that will CTD if used with LtPD unless you clean LtPD.

Deleted references don't always do that, but they have the potential for it. Dirty edits are just annoying and cause things like land rips where they shouldn't be and other irritating things of that nature.